Monthly Archives: November 2020

Enneagram 2.0

01. Getting Started: The Nine Types

 

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST

 

READ THE TRANSCRIPTION

Uranio

Hello, welcome to the Enneagram 2.0 podcast, I am Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

And I’m Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And today our podcast is called: Understanding the nine types.

 

Jingle

What is the topic today?

 

Beatrice

Yes, and today we’re going to talk about some of the basic characteristics of each of the nine types. And this will serve both as an introduction for beginners, you may be starting your enneagram journey by listening to our podcast, or at this current moment in your life. But we’re also going to put in some things we think will be very interesting for people who have more experience with the enneagram system. We’ll talk about myths and stereotypes that often get perpetuated about the nine types that we’d like to point out and hopefully work against.

 

Uranio

That’s very good, it sounds very good Bea. I believe that people who are beginners though, need to understand a few basics on how to listen to this podcast looking inside. So, it’s useful if you don’t take only this moment of life, but if you look back to all moments in your life. Apart from this, you can also think that your type is present in all areas of your life and not only one. it’s not only about work or about love, it’s something that shows up in all areas of your life. Bear in mind also that, although we may have features of all nine types, or at least features of a few types, we can identify ourselves with some things we’re going to say about all nine types, that one of those is really more meaningful, it’s more central. And people of that type have those characteristics as something that is more difficult not to have or to overcome.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly.

 

Uranio

So okay, let’s start Bea. Usually we start on number eight and not number one, would you like to explain why?

 

Beatrice

Yes. So, there are actually three groups of three types. We’ll talk about nine types and next time we’ll talk about the three centers of intelligence. Our body is a center of intelligence, our heart is a center of intelligence and our head is a center of intelligence. This is based on a more Eastern view of the human being about having three equal centers through which we process information from the outside world. And we start with the body-based types, right?! Our guts develop first even before we’re born. And so, we start with eight, nine, and one, because those are the body-based types. And then we go to two, three, and four, which are the heart-based types, and then five, six, and seven, which overuse the head center. That’s another way of saying it. For each of the nine types, we’ll cover some of the basic core traits, some strengths and challenges. Although, it’s important to remember that while each type does have strengths and specialties, we don’t want to think too well of the ego. These are ego games. So, we want to be thinking about these types with an eye toward always growing. it’s always about growing beyond the ego, not kind of making the ego better or making things easier for the ego. So, we will talk about strengths because it’s important for people to understand that all types have gifts and qualities and things, they’re good at. The problem is when we overuse our strengths, and we don’t develop a wider range of capacities.

 

Uranio

And we are going to cover the inner experience, as we said, and not only the alter behaviour.

 

Beatrice

Exactly, the inner experience as well as the blind spots. And the challenges of the blind spots lead us to talk about the developmental path for each of the types.

 

Uranio

Which is very, very important. Should we start with type eight, then?

 

Jingle:

Type eight.

 

Beatrice

Yes. So, type eight, sometimes is called “The boss” or “The challenger”. Their focus of attention is on the big picture, on power and control, on exerting strength, protecting the weak, on fighting for justice, on truth, and creating order out of disorder. They tend to avoid being vulnerable or weak. And their strengths are that they are direct, powerful, strong, generous, protective of others, assertive, hardworking, decisive and action oriented. However, their challenges are being in touch with their own vulnerability. They tend to deny any weakness they might have an overcompensate it by expressing a lot of strength in the world. They can dominate situations, they have a larger than life presence, they often get the feedback that they’re intimidating, even though usually they’re not trying to intimidate at all, they’re just being themselves.

 

Uranio

Right. And eights are also very intense in different ways. This has to do with a basic emotional pattern that they hold inside, which is excess. The heart wants more, more and more and then they become somewhat larger than the life of people. Now, intensity can be something that other people in the outside see or not, but it’s usually sensed, perceived in the senses. Now, eights also direct that intensity towards what they do, in relationships, and how they deal with themselves, either working too hard or sleeping too much, or having too much leisure, or whatever, much fun, too much anything.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And in Halen Palmer’s book, she said that they’re too long, too loud and too late. There’s a lot of excess as you say. At low levels of awareness, eights can be combative, they can be too strong, they sometimes don’t know their own impact, they can shut people down. But when eights really work on themselves and develop their higher aspects, they can really blend being strong, in all the good ways that they are, with being much more in touch with their vulnerability. So they balance out the incredible power that they just naturally have with a more softer side, and they can express more of their sensitivity and be more empathic with others.

 

Uranio

Yeah, and that becomes even natural. The trick is that when they get in touch with pain, or lack of self-confidence, or some sadness, or even fear, they feel like they’re getting smaller, but from other people’s perspective, they are getting more courageous, stronger even. And that makes other people feel good about them.

 

Beatrice

Yes, it really helps eights to remember that the biggest mark of strength is the ability to be vulnerable.

 

Uranio

And it’s useful to know that not always people will attack you, if you’re an eight, if you open up to vulnerability.

 

Beatrice

Right. But early programming can make eights feel like they can’t leave any space for that. They just automatically go into forward momentum, into action, into deploying their considerable strength in the world. So, some of the myths and stereotypes about eights are that they tend to be bullies, that they are totally insensitive. What else? What do you think are some harmful stereotypes that get attached to eights?

 

Uranio

I agree with these. I think that sometimes people think they are totally insensitive and that they don’t have feelings. And I think they do have feelings. Sometimes it’s difficult to show, to express it in a direct way, that would go against the identity they try to form. But also, they get bullied a lot for being eights.

 

Beatrice

Right. But they get misperceived as always being angry or always seeking conflict. When most eights will say it’s not that they like conflict, it’s just that they can do it and they’ll confront someone if they need to.

 

Uranio

What if it’s just sometimes the other person’s responsibility to be a little more direct and authentic?

 

Beatrice

Exactly. Now, when eights work on themselves, and they notice the ways that they actually do feel vulnerable, because we all feel vulnerable, they can really reach a good place and express the higher aspect of a kind of innocence, a kind of readiness and openness to be a bit empathetic with people and to meet whatever comes from their true self.

 

Jingle

Type nine. 

 

Beatrice

Nines are sometimes called “The mediator” or “The peacemaker”. The focus of attention for nines is on others. On other’s priorities and agendas, on seeing all sides of an issue, adapting to others or even over adapting, and on maintaining comfort and avoiding conflict. Nines tend to avoid conflict because to them, whether it’s unconscious or conscious, they believe it leads to separation. They also have weighed their own anger. It’s said that nines go to sleep to their own anger. Eights, nines and ones, in addition to being what we might call the anger triad, and that it’s their core emotion, are also the triad of self-forgetting. And nines really represent this self-forgetting, this going to sleep to one’s own agenda, to some degree to one’s own desires or anger. Nine’s strengths are that they tend to be easy-going, and adaptive, supportive, good mediators, because they’re motivated to defuse conflict when it does happen, affable, friendly, helpful and really good at building consensus. The challenges associated with these strengths are being aware of their own anger. Anger is connected to power for nines. And sometimes they don’t feel like they have power in the world to express themselves or exert the strength they do have, because they’re so focused on others. And usually, early on they may have had an experience of other people being more powerful or having louder voices. And sometimes they felt like they got overlooked. So, they take the path of least resistance and go to sleep to their own desires and wishes and preferences, and even opinions, and go along with others as a way of getting along with people, creating harmony, which is a big priority for them, and avoiding conflict.

 

Uranio

Right, I think that it’s essential to know one aspect of how all that starts with nines. They lose the vital energy that they have, when they start paying too much attention in the outside, to external demands. So, the energy goes down for themselves, they can be really active in the outside, doing a lot, but mostly for other people, for other things, for their house, for the pets, but not for themselves. When they need to focus back on themselves, the energy goes down. It’s not easy for nines to put themselves first. And also, it’s not that easy to start new processes. It’s easier to keep doing what is already in place.

 

Beatrice

What do you think are some myths and stereotypes about nines?

 

Uranio

I think the main one is that nines can have low action, in general. It’s not true. Most nines are extremely active, it’s just that the energy falls down when they focus on themselves or when starting something new, in general.

 

Beatrice

Right. It’s like they lose energy when they need to focus on their own priorities. But they have a lot of energy when they’re doing things for others or working on things that will create more harmony in the environment.

 

Uranio

Another myth is that nines only agree. You know, many times they show as if they are agreeing, but on the inside they’re just saying to themselves “I won’t do that” when other people are asking them to do, and they can be quite stubborn.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And they may seem passive because sometimes they go to sleep to their own preferences, but they can be very active and they aren’t necessarily always passive in everything they do.

 

Uranio

And one other myth is that some people think they are just followers. And it’s not true, because even nines are perhaps the most resistant against authoritarian people. So, they will not follow you unless they are reading agreement on the inside that that should be done. And it’s not because someone is nice that the person is complying to everything you would like them to comply to.

 

Beatrice

Right. They say yes, but they mean no sometimes.

 

Uranio

Many times.

 

Beatrice

I think it’s really important to understand that nines can be passive-resistant or passive-aggressive. Now they go to sleep to their anger. But when we don’t experience the emotions that are inside us consciously, it doesn’t mean they go away. It often means they leak out in other ways. And for nines, because they tend to be unconscious of the anger that they have, they can do things like be stubborn, or drag their feet or not make decisions or just get passive when it comes time to take action, especially if they feel like other people have been telling them what to do, or being disrespectful. They can get passive aggressive, and that’s very important for nines to be aware of. And when nines become more in touch with their anger, when they can get to know their own agenda, when they do the inner work that it takes to connect more to themselves and their own priorities, they can really balance out their very positive attention on supporting others with a more empowered presence in the world.

 

Jingle

Type one. 

 

Beatrice

Type One is sometimes called “The perfectionist” or “The reformer”, and their focus of attention is on right and wrong, on detecting error to correct it. They automatically see how things aren’t quite right and how they could be made more right or perfect or better. On being responsible and on being ethical. They tend to avoid making mistakes, being wrong, and what they’re really avoiding is being criticized from the outside. Oftentimes in childhood ones had a very painful experience of being criticized from the outside. And so, it’s as if they take in that critic and develop an inner critic that monitors what they’re doing from the inside, so that they will be good. Ones often say they wanted to be a good boy or a good girl. So, their focus is very much on doing the right thing whether it means doing things better or being virtuous, generally. The strengths associated with the one personality are that they’re hardworking, reliable, very oriented toward quality, they tend to be ethical and responsible, very honest. And they’re people who have high integrity. The challenges that go along with that, and the blind spots are that they tend to be unaware of their anger. And again, eight nine and one are what we call anger types. eights tend to overdo anger, nines underdo or go to sleep to their anger and ones are sort of in conflict with their anger, because ones want to be good. They often think it’s bad to be angry. And so, they avoid expressing it, they put a lid on anger. And what happens is, they express repressed versions of anger, like irritation, annoyance, and resentment. And in this way, they may not be fully aware of what’s really true for them emotionally, especially when it comes to anger. Related to this, they sometimes don’t recognize the effect of criticism or that other people feel criticized, or how much they may be hurting themselves when they’re very self-critical. They also really have a blind spot when it comes to relaxation and the need for fun and pleasure in their life. They can be over serious, and not give themselves enough of a break, enough of the time.

 

Uranio

I want to stress that I believe anger is pretty much behind most of what you’ve just said Bea, but it’s hard to admit that it’s anger for a type that wants to be perfect. So, there is a lot of stereotyping in our societies, in many societies, that anger is something bad. So, ones don’t want to be bad. And therefore, they can’t admit they are angry. But it starts with being angry on the inside. As you said, sometimes they think it’s just being annoyed or irritated. But those are more palatable ways of saying I’m angry. And what is important, though, to grow is that ones dedicate to having more fun, and their internal mechanism is to go against having fun, like, “duty needs to come first”. And it’s quite important for their development if they allow themselves to follow a bit more of their impulses for fun and pleasure.

 

Beatrice

Yes, very important. What do you think are some of the myths and stereotypes about ones?

 

Uranio

Well, I think that one myth is that they do everything correct. Sometimes ones have a secret life in which they dedicate some time, it can be during a trip, can be doing a sport, in which they are not that rigid.

 

Beatrice

Related to that, I think some people have the misconception that all ones are perfectionistic about everything. it’s kind of related to what you’re saying. But that every single thing they do has to be neat and orderly. And most ones will tell you that’s not true at all. They may be perfectionistic in one area of their life, maybe their desk needs to be in order, but their car may be a mess, or they may forget things. And I think it’s important to remember that not all ones are even perfectionists and when they are tending that way, they don’t really apply that to every area of their life. One thing I wanted to add about the one’s anger is the question of why are ones angry? What are they angry about? I think it’s important to recognize that because they’re always trying to do the right thing, and they see that other people aren’t always trying to do the right thing, that can make them angry. it’s sort of natural, like, for instance, a one would never litter. But then they see other people littering, it naturally inspires anger. So, I think it’s important also to understand about ones that they’re angry often for good reason. It’s just that they develop a kind of inner conflict around anger that can be very hard chiefly for them. But also, for the others around them sometimes, when they don’t give themselves permission to have their feelings and their impulses. But when they do, when they can accept more of their feelings, like you said, get more in touch with the ability to relax and express their instincts and impulses, and not having to control themselves so much and be so responsible, they can be light and funny and they can really mix a kind of serious, hardworking nature and become someone who’s more fun to be around, more loose and happier.

 

Uranio

Right. Now one funny thing, we sometimes say that while the other eight types need to improve somehow and get better, we say that ones need to get worse. They need decadence.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I love it. I love it when you say that. So, I think that’s a great thing to end on for ones.

 

Jingle

Type two.

 

Beatrice

This is my type. So, I might have to add a little bit in here about the misconceptions because I have a lot to say about that. But I’ll try to be brief. The focus of attention for twos is on other people, similar to nines. They focus on how other people are feeling, what other people might be needing. They focus on relationships in general and on gaining approval from other people. They tend to avoid being rejected or disliked or disapproved of. And their strengths are that they tend to be caring, upbeat and friendly, energetic, service oriented, supportive, and interested in people. The challenges are knowing their own needs, first of all. This is a big blind spot for twos, they often really just don’t know what they need. Sometimes they may not know how they’re feeling because twos who haven’t done a lot of inner work on themselves sometimes either don’t know what they’re feeling or try to avoid expressing feelings because it’s uncomfortable. If you’re trying to connect with someone and you have an uncomfortable feeling come up, that can be hard to know how to deal with, it can be embarrassing if you get emotional in front of somebody else. Also, the value of being direct with people can be hard for twos, they can want to just make people feel good, say nice things and it can be hard for them to offer constructive feedback. Finally, another big blind spot and challenge it’s very important for twos to learn about. So, if you’re a two, you might want to really listen to this. It has to do with how helping others, supporting others can be about a desire to be indispensable, and ultimately about power and control and even manipulation. It can be a way of having a role in the lives of the important people around you. And sometimes twos think that when they help others, it’s purely altruistic. And while some of the time it might be, sometimes it can be more about creating a position of power with that person. What do you think are other important things for people to know about twos?

 

Uranio

I believe it’s useful to know that most of this comes from an emotional pattern on the inside that we call pride. And pride has different manifestations. So, twos may feel pride when they believe they don’t have needs, only other people do. Or that they have the solutions for other people’s needs. Or they may be feeling proud when they get extremely happy when they help others, or when they become important for others. So, there’s this internal sensation that I need to be more than I am, more than a human being, like a superhuman, more important, because there is some kind of comparison, you know, standing above.

 

Beatrice

Right, and also important to the people you care about, so that they’ll consider your needs.

 

Uranio

And then twos sometimes create this trap of building dependency on them. But actually, they become dependent on other people depending on them.

 

Beatrice

Right, because two’s whole strategy is offering help and support to someone with the unspoken expectation that others will take care of their needs in reciprocal fashion. Now, this is problematic because twos, like all of us, think other people see the world the way they do, they imagine this is true. And so, they may help someone a lot expecting that person will then do the same for them. And then when they don’t, because the other person is not a two and isn’t thinking that way, they can get resentful, and even angry. So, it’s really important that twos learn that they may be meeting other’s needs with an agenda. And sometimes that agenda can be a blind spot.

 

Uranio

But that is very unconscious many times. Now talking about myths related to twos. I think that one big myth is thinking that twos always help. Like when you explain Bea that you believe twos are a little less about helping and a little more about being liked. Would you mind saying something about it?

 

Beatrice

Yes, it actually drives me crazy when I hear a lot of enneagram teachers, and this happens with even some of the best enneagram teachers I know, they present twos as simplistically helping and getting all the time and liking to meet people’s needs. Almost like going around looking for people who have needs so they can meet them. And that’s the end of the story, that’s the whole description of twos. And I think this is very misleading. Because twos, for me as a two, it’s not really about helping at all. It’s about making a connection. It’s about creating rapport. And as you said, it’s about being liked. For me, what’s much more in the foreground is, and this is where the pride comes in, there’s almost like a fantasy I have or a fiction that I believe in it that I can make everybody like me. And again, this is part of the pride, with the power of my charm and what I do for people and how hard I’ll work to support someone or please someone, that I can engineer positive connections and manufacture good rapport such that that person will either depend on me or like me so much, that they’ll just automatically take care of me when I need something, without me having to ask, of course. I have to say this because it’s popping into my mind right now. But there’s a TV show that has a music in it, one of my favourite songs about twos with this title: “After everything I’ve done for you that you didn’t ask for.” Right? So, it’s this kind of proactive, I mean, I help you whether you want it or not. But again, there’s a hidden agenda, sometimes hidden from the two him or herself, that I’m doing this and so you do something for me. So, I think it’s strategic help that’s offered and not just simple help, and that is much more about engineering connection than it is about altruistic giving. And so, I hope that there are people listening out there that would influence if they ever hear someone making just a very simplistic presentation of two, that they help people see that it’s more complicated than that. So, any more myths and stereotypes about twos before we talk a little bit about the high side?

 

Uranio

I think you’ve said many important ones and just the thing about not believing that they only give, give, give, but also what you said that they are not necessarily altruistic.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And I do think, and when we teach together, we focus a lot on helping twos see the pride that they have, and all the ways it manifests. Because I think in terms of the key emotional factors, called the passions, pride can be the most difficult one to spot and understand all the indirect manifestations. But I think when twos can be humbler, when they can see how they give to get, when they can be more aware, they can really love people from a higher place, they can be altruistic givers. They can be really good relationship partners and people who really deeply care about empowering people and loving people.

 

Uranio

And that happens more easily when they develop the courage of looking inside their own hearts, in things that hurt, wounds, pain, and when they work on that, they actually become more beautiful and deep in many ways.

 

Beatrice

Yes, the growth path for twos has to do with spending more time alone and really learning to shift the focus from others to yourself and really doing a lot of inner… connecting with what’s going on inside.

 

Jingle

Let’s do a short break.

 

Woman

Have you already subscribed for Bea and Uranio’s YouTube channel? Go to YouTube and search for Chestnut Paes and click on like and subscribe.

 

Become a member now at Chestnut Paes online for a lot more enneagram content from Bea and Uranio. Sign up for the annual plan and get access to hundreds of audio files, videos, monthly online classes, articles, and even full online enneagram workshops. It’s a great value. Visit www.cpenneagram.com.

 

Bea and Uranio offer much more high-quality enneagram content on www.cpenneagram.com. If you are an enneagram enthusiast, visit the website now www.cpenneagram.com.

 

Jingle

Type three.

 

Beatrice

Type three. Sometimes called “The performer” or ‘The achiever”. This is a type who focuses attention on tasks and goals, on achieving. They focus a lot of attention on work, on creating lists of things to do. They love listing things to do, on leading their audience and figuring out what does this audience think of as attractive or admirable or successful. What’s the image of success that I need to create to have influence with these people? And creating a successful image based on their reading of a particular audience. They avoid failure at all costs. And they avoid being viewed as ineffective or useless or incompetent. Strengths associated with type three are that they tend to be very accomplished and successful. Threes are good at achieving success because they’re really good at breaking the path to success down into steps and goals. And then they focus on goals like a laser beam. And the path to the goal is what’s really in the foreground of what they’re thinking about all the time. And so, if they can meet the goal, and they meet goal after goal, they end up achieving any results they focus on achieving. And this makes them high achievers, it makes them good performers. You see threes a lot at high levels of organizations, especially in the US, but in the West in general. And there are people who really know how to fit into any situation. They’re shapeshifters who can, in a chameleon like way, turn themselves into whatever they need to be to be admired in different contexts. The challenges associated with this personality type are that when you’re changing your presentation, your image, depending on who you’re with and what you’re trying to accomplish, you lose touch with who you really are, with your true emotions, with what you really want. And so, you invest a lot of focus and energy into creating an image. And that image can be shifting all the time. And again, this is very automatic and unconscious for threes. But that tendency to shape shift leads to not being connected to your true self, on who you really are, and how you really feel. And so, another challenge is an inability to slow down or stop, threes are always in motion. They’re big workaholics of the enneagram. And it can be hard for them to stop, it can be hard for them to engage in self-care, to find work life balance. And it can also be hard for them to see there is value in failure at times. To see failure as a learning experience, and not work so hard to avoid any sign of vulnerability in the things they do. What else do you think is really important to know about threes?

 

Uranio

Well, to me, the two main things to observe if you are three, this the self-deceit connected to what you call the shape shifting, and also the adaptation, which is not optional. It happens automatically, naturally, without effort. And it’s hard not to do it. it’s almost impossible not to do it. If one who adapts all the time loses sight of who, you know, who am I really? And the second thing is how hard it becomes to stop. While it’s hard for everybody in modern societies, it’s only for threes that it feels like dying. Because the whole sense of being and worth comes from what I do and not who I am. So, it’s very important to observe these two aspects.

 

Beatrice

And when we work with people in our inner work retreats, the story we often hear from threes is that they didn’t really find a growth path until they had some sort of breakdown. It’s often an illness or an injury, or one day they wake up and they can’t get out of bed. That really leads them to do some inner reflection, because they get so on the path of meeting the next goal, and achieving the next thing they want to achieve, that it can be very difficult to make room for feelings to slow down and really just be. What about myths and stereotypes when it comes to type three?

 

Uranio

Well, one thing is saying that threes don’t feel. That’s not true at all. Feelings are always around because they are the center of the heart triad on the enneagram. Now, what they do is that when feelings come, they push away the feelings.

 

Beatrice

Unconsciously, of course.

 

Uranio

Very unconsciously. But they are around, so deep inside they are feeling types.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. They are emotional types, they’re actually the core point of the heart triad. And they’re good at, very unconsciously, almost turning the volume down on feelings because feelings get in the way of doing. I’m a two, I know this. Sometimes what really slows me down when I’m trying to be productive is, I get in a certain mood. Threes are very good at just going into motion, so that feelings don’t arise. In fact, one of the motivations for threes working so much without brakes is, if they do take a pause, emotions are right there. Like you say, emotions will rise up whenever there’s a break in the action. And so, it’s completely false to view threes as not being an emotional person. So, when threes are able to really work on themselves and slow down and get to know who they really are, they can become much more productive than they ever dreamed they could be, because the paradox here is that, when you’re in touch with your real self, you can be more creative, you can find work that has real meaning and purpose, and in the big picture, you can actually be more efficient and effective, because you’re not just doing things because of an image or because of a work. You’re doing things because they matter and it’s coming from a deeper place. So, when threes get in touch with their heart they actually get more in touch with their true selves, who they really are, and also have much greater life satisfaction.

 

Jingle

Type four.

 

Beatrice

Sometimes called “The artist” or “The romantic”. The focus of attention for type four is on feelings, usually their own, and type fours are probably the most emotional type on the enneagram. They may not always show their emotions but they tend to be in touch with their inner state. Also, their focus of attention is on the status of connections. How disconnected or connected they feel to the people in their lives. They also focus on self-expression, on being special or unique. They focus on what’s beautiful, what’s aesthetically pleasing. And also, on what’s missing. Finally, fours are said to have a comparing mind. So, they make comparisons between themselves and others and often thinking of themselves either as lower or less good than others or superior to others. Fours avoid being misunderstood. They also avoid abandonment, or feeling ordinary or whatever feels mundane. They like the extraordinary and they don’t want to feel like they’re just like everybody else, they want to stand out. The strikes associated with type four are that they’re emotionally empathic, they often sense or feel what’s going on in an emotional level below the surface with people, that are very intuitive in that way. They have a keen aesthetic sense, they really know what looks good and what doesn’t to them, they have a very clear creative vision, and they value authenticity. Fours are good when it comes to emotions because while other types can think it’s not good to be emotional, or they can unconsciously avoid feeling certain emotions, fours are champions of being emotionally authentic. They believe something along the lines of, “if you feel a feeling, you might as well express it. As long as it’s authentic, that’s okay”. There’s nothing wrong with feelings, emotions are valid and it’s good to be authentic and be who you really are in the world. They’re also truth tellers, they will speak inconvenient truths or speak truth to power. They say what’s going on beneath the surface, the elephant in the room, sometimes when other people don’t want to hear it, when it’s an inconvenient truth. But fours tend to be courageous in that way. What’s challenging about being a four is seeing the positive in the here and now. That habit of noticing what’s missing can make it hard to see what’s good, what’s going on that’s actually working really well. Also owning their own positive qualities. Fours can have a belief, unconscious or conscious, in their own deficiency or inadequacy, they can sense or feel that they’re not as good as other people. Also, it can be challenging to manage their strong emotions. They can tend to have high highs and low lows and be kind of up and down, emotionally. Sometimes their emotions can get very strong such that they can be problematic in relationships. So, it helps fours to learn to rise above their emotions and find more equanimity. What else do you think is important to understand about fours?

 

Uranio

So, when you talk about the comparing mind, I think that’s very central, and many of the other features that you described so well, I think, come from that. So, the comparing mind needs to be correctly understood here. So, when fours compare themselves, they are placing attention in what’s absent, in what’s not present, in what they don’t have or what they’re not experiencing, and they need to understand that they develop an impression, that may not be accurate, that other people have that better than they do. So, the comparison is quite constant. While all of us compare ourselves and put ourselves, you know, in second place, fours do it all the time. And many times, it’s not in the second place but put themselves last. Or they also go do something about it but out of that comparison. Out of that feeling that I lack something, or they may complain and go against the other person. Also because of that comparing mind. So, the path of growth in the sense for fours has to do with stopping comparing, has to do with not competing on the inside with other people and valuing more what’s present, not only what I wish for or long for that I once had. It’s really valuing the present.

 

Beatrice

Yes, they can be a bit focused on the past. And it’s very helpful for fours when they can be happy about what it is, to be more content in their lives. What do you think is a typical stereotype, or a myth that is out there that people have about fours?

 

Uranio

Well I think many times we hear that fours are necessarily dramatic. And I don’t think it’s all about that, or other times we hear that they are depressed, that’s a big misconception. And a misconception actually about what depression is. Now, the fact here is that fours are emotional, highly emotional as you said. But, you know, they not always complain, not always do drama. You know, there are different reactions to all that, and many times this is happening only on the inside for fours and you don’t see it happening. I’d say that in some cultures, or most cultures, especially for men, you will not see much or hear much the person, you know, acting that out. And again, the enneagram is much more about an inner experience, we need to look to what’s happening in the inside to find out what our type is, not necessarily what’s happening in the outside.

 

Beatrice

Yes. A misconception I see a lot, especially in internet forums is, if you’re happy, that means you can’t be a four. And that’s absurd, because there are many fours who are very happy and even look happy. One of the things that might be important to say here is that the subtypes, the three versions of the type four, look very different from one another. And if people don’t know the subtypes well, especially the approach to subtypes that we use, that we’ll be talking about in future podcasts, they may not understand the varieties of four. And that actually two of the three kinds of fours can look quite happy and be very energetic and not at all depressed or melancholy.

 

Uranio

Yeah, sometimes we end up stereotyping all people of one type, as if they were only of that particular subtype. In this case we stereotype fours, we have stereotyped fours for the social fours. But we won’t go into subtype now, what else about fours Bea?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think it’s important to know the growth path is, in line with what we’re saying, a lot about learning to appreciate themselves, learning to see who they really are and what they’re good at, and not devalue themselves or reactively overvalue themselves and needing to stand out and be superior to others. I think both making yourself inferior or seeing yourself as superior is like the two poles of a spectrum, both of which are about this comparison. And when fours can value who they really are and learn to see all feelings as important, but not needing to overdramatize or become masochistic, they can rise above and be more emotionally calm and cantered, and bring the best of themselves into the world with a clear understanding of who they are.

 

Uranio

Totally agree with you, and I also think it’s quite important in their growth path to learn how to get out, you know, outside of themselves. Like, they tend to spend too much time, in some cases all the time, inside themselves. Specially in the heart, in feelings and the experience I have with myself. So, it’s quite self-referencing. Now, when fours learn how to go outside and experience the reality that is happening out there, without coming back to interpret that, then many good things happen to them, like placing attention in the outside without coming back to the heart, and being more in the outside where things are actually happening.

 

Beatrice

Being more objective and less interpreting their world through a subjective lens based on their emotional state or what they believe to be true about themselves.

 

Uranio

Emotions can be really good, beautiful and our life is not worth it if it’s not felt. But on the other hand, if it’s all about emotions, it’s also not ok.

 

Beatrice

There’s an over identification with emotions, just like if there’s an over identification with thoughts, that can be bad as well.

 

Uranio

Exactly. So, it’s not true that “I feel therefore I am” and that, you know, everything needs to be felt. Sometimes I just need to stay with things that are happening out there.

 

Jingle

Type five. 

 

Beatrice

Speaking of over identifying with thoughts.

 

Uranio

And I know quite a bit of that.

 

Beatrice

Yes, you do. So, you can weigh in heavily in this description.

So, the focus of attention for fives is on gaining knowledge on data and information, and on managing resources of time and energy and observing things that are happening from a distance. Making sure they have space to process and think about what’s happening, usually most comfortably while they’re alone. They avoid having their energy depleted and various experiences they have, often with other people, can feel depleting as opposed to restorative. And they can also feel uncomfortable sharing too much personal information about themselves, or getting too emotionally entangled with others. They tend to automatically detach from emotion and again, this is an unconscious process, and go more into their heads, where they feel much more comfortable, focusing on analysis and being objective. Their strengths are that they tend to be independent and self-sufficient, very analytical, insightful, objective, because they’re very good at automatically separating the feelings out from anything and focusing on the facts. Also, they value and respect boundaries, most of the time, because they want to have their own personal space, that’s very important, and so they give it to others, quite easily. The challenges connected to being a five have to do with the fact that they disconnect from emotion, it can be hard for them to especially feel their emotions in the presence of others and express them in the moment. There’s a misconception, which we can talk more about, that fives don’t have feelings. But fives, of course, do have feelings, they just feel more comfortable experiencing them in private. Also, the need for others and how relationships can be nurturing and energy giving can sometimes be a blind spot for fives. They can see interactions with others sort of taking energy away from them as opposed to giving them something. So, they can fear abundance when it comes to love and connection. And feel like they never have enough privacy or independence just because that’s the real safe zone for them. So, as the expert on type five, tell us more about what this personality type is all about.

 

Uranio

I think that unconsciously we shut off our hearts, as fives. Both for receiving and for giving. But this means that we develop deep inside a willingness to receive more and to connect, because we start lacking that too much. There is a whole sensitivity in the inside that we don’t show to other people. And we are sensitive, both to other people invading our space, or going away from us. And we send messages that are not easy to be understood. Sometimes we want people to get close to us, but when they do, we get scared and we do things that they feel like they are being pushed away. But it’s many times not personal. Many people get it personal. Now, fives also have this quality of showing off the heart at the moment, but processing all the feelings they have when they are alone, which can happen in the next hour or in the next month or within years. Now, people don’t usually hear back from them, though. it’s very hard to share emotions. And another crucial thing to understand about fives is that there is, you know, grief about being lonely. And there is a misunderstanding usually about this, people think that fives just like to be alone. It’s true, it’s a lovely moment for a five to be in the very good company of ourselves and not nobody else. But, at the same time, we suffer with the lack of connection. And it feels many times more like not being capable of staying connected then really not wanting to. And there’s the thing about fives that many fives, including myself, report that they feel a little weird. You know, different, socially awkward.

 

Beatrice

I think in terms of myths and stereotypes, we’ve already named a couple of them, but they really center on people believing that fives are aloof or arrogant, or completely insensitive, without emotion. And of course, this is not true. And I think it’s sometimes difficult because when fives don’t come forward with what’s going on inside, and they don’t say anything, it’s easy for people to project their ideas of what’s going on with the five in that space. And so, sometimes I think people don’t realize that fives are hypersensitive. Part of why they need so much space is because they’re so sensitive to other people, and usually, like you said, far from feeling aloof or arrogant, there can be more of a sense of awkwardness or discomfort in sharing themselves with others, which can lead to a need to withdraw, which can look like, to some of us out here, like you don’t care about us. And of course, that’s a difficult situation.

 

Uranio

Very well explained.

 

Beatrice

Any other myths or stereotypes about fives?

 

Uranio

I think that it’s really not true to say that we don’t feel, I think we do and it’s harder to share. Also, people don’t really know the degree to which we can disconnect and the importance of privacy for us. Like, “oh I may be a five because I like privacy sometimes.” That’s not the case of a five. Fives don’t like privacy, they need it. And it’s not sometimes, it’s every day, several times a day. So that if we don’t have privacy, we create it. You know, there’s this interesting technology of being alone, you know, when we are with other people all around us.

 

Beatrice

Yes, you can disappear and go away while being physically present.

 

Uranio

And the mind is very active. So, we disconnect by thinking of what is being said and creating ideas over it, or thinking on all causes and consequences. So, there is a big disconnection by using the head or over using it.

 

Beatrice

So, tell us a little bit about the growth path for fives. How do fives get to be healthier versions of themselves?

 

Uranio

First, I think they need to get to the body. And then also to the heart, eventually. But it’s being able to do before thinking a bit more. Being a little more practical a little less philosophical at times, being someone who seeks for connection and goes for it with a little more zest, and therefore they feel energized. Also, I think it’s very important for all fives to be in touch with avoidance at the heart, you know, as a result of too much disconnection throughout life. You know, we used to fill in that void by bringing in more and more knowledge and information. But it doesn’t really fill in the space which has to do with emotions and people. So, being in touch with that sadness in the inside and not disconnecting from it is essential, though painful. Because when we get in touch with that side of us that feels lonely, feels bad, we start changing.

 

Beatrice

Let’s do a short break.

 

Woman

The enneagram 2.0 podcast goes live every other Thursday on all main platforms. Stay tuned to learn more about yourself and others.

If you like this podcast, visit www.cpenneagram.com for much more great enneagram content.

 

Woman

Bea and Uranio teach in person inner work retreats and professional workshops all over the world. They happen twice a year in California, London, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, in Cairo, and sometimes in other countries and US locations too. Hundreds of students from all places and levels of knowledge are doing these courses. You can see the full Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy calendar of events at www.cpenneagram.com.

 

Jingle

Type six.

 

Beatrice

Type six is sometimes called “The devil’s advocate” or “The contrarian” or “The sceptic”. The focus of attention for type six is on watching for potential threats and risks. It’s like they’re scanning the horizon for what could go wrong, so that they can prepare for anything that can happen. Prepare for problems that might crop up and solve them ahead of time, even before they show up. They sometimes have authority issues and test authority, because they’re sensitive to power dynamics. People who have power can be a risk if they don’t use that power wisely. Sixes tend to avoid being unprepared in the face of threats, they can think in terms of worst-case scenarios and be always focused on having backup plans or creating contingency plans in case the worst happens. The strengths are that they are analytical and insightful. They’re good trouble-shooters and problem solvers. What’s tricky, though, is when you’re a really good problem solver and very good at forecasting potential problems, you can become a problem seeker, and sometimes sixes get perceived by others as being overly negative or pessimistic, because they’re always poking holes in plans or questioning what’s happening or thinking of some negative scenario that could occur, if you go forward according to the current route. So, what sixes would say to that, however, is that they aren’t pessimistic, they’re realistic. That they are thinking in terms of what could really happen and their intention is often to help people by helping them see what could go wrong, so that it won’t happen, and problems are solved in advance. The challenges for sixes are having more faith. Sixes have trouble trusting people, sometimes trusting themselves. So, learning to have faith in things as opposed to feeling like they need to control things. Six is the core fear point and so, sometimes they have fear or anxiety. This can be conscious or unconscious, depending on subtype, usually. So, learning to trust themselves and others can be an important path for them. But it’s also important to say here that a lot about type six varies depending on the subtype. And remember the subtype points to the fact that there’s three different versions of each of the nine types, depending on which one of three instincts or instinctual drives is dominant in your experience. And it’s almost hard to talk about one six because the three sixes, similar to the fours, are so distinct from one another, that it can be hard to say this or that trait applies equally to all sixes. So, for instance, self-preservation sixes, which we might say is a more phobic or fearful six, their challenge is building confidence and not projecting their power onto others, but owning their power and learning to express more aggression. And the counter phobic six, sometimes called the one-to-one six or the sexual six is the six that actually needs to get more in touch with vulnerability and fear, because oftentimes they go into getting active to meet threats. It’s a little bit like how we often say that the different reactions to fear are fight or flight. The three versions of type six represent these different reactions or responses or coping strategies when dealing with fear. Where one six wants to run away, that’s the phobic six, the flight six, there’s one six that wants to fight, that’s the counter phobic six or the one-to-one or sexual six, that moves toward the source of fear to meet that challenge with strength and sometimes intimidation. And then, there’s a third six, the social six, that’s kind of a mixture of phobic and counter phobic responses and basically looks for a good authority to know what to do. Again, we’ll talk about the subtypes more later. But it’s important to mention at this point only because these three sixes can be so different. So, what else do you think is important to know about sixes?

 

Uranio

Well, apart from the very good descriptions, I think that sixes benefit a lot when they realize how they project their own fears on to everyone and everything. And therefore, the root of the fear is not outside but inside. So, fear is given here, and differently from other people, it’s not fear of something, it’s fear, period. Fear is the dominating emotion, for all three subtypes of sixes that you’ve just described. So, because I feel fear, I go outside and start looking at reasons, potential reasons for me to be feeling fearful, and I see those in people who might be threatening, in situations that might be challenging and so on. So, if a sex becomes capable of going back for the inside, and stay in touch with the fear and go somewhere beyond it, you know, there will be courage.  By the way, courage is not the absence of fear but the capacity to stay in fear and go, you know, go ahead despite fear. Without reacting in the fight or flight mode, but just staying with fear. And, you know, also, maybe we could talk a bit now Bea, about the myths that sometimes surround descriptions of sixes. And I would like to start if possible. I think that one of the myths is that sixes are always talking about problems or being negative. I believe that they are more contrarians. So, it means that if someone starts talking about problems, they will start talking about good things, or even solutions. So, a leader in an organization or, for instance, I like soccer, as you know, football, and there are so many coaches who are sixes, in my view. And many times, when the team loses, they are calm and they are confident that better moments will come. While when the team is winning, they focus on the problems, they issue, you know, so they’re trying to investigate what’s behind any good situation. It’s a little scary to have success, you know, and they many times play the devil’s advocate, as you said.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And it reminds me that they can actually be quite self-deprecating, they can often be humorous in that way, and they often don’t have big egos, they can be humble, which I think is a good thing. Another stereotype I would say is that the fear associated with type six makes them somehow weak or cowardly. Now I think the fixation, which we’ll talk about, the mental habit of sixes is cowardice, so there is that tendency. But I think most sixes you meet in real life are actually quite strong and this shows in the fact that they tend to be calm in crisis. Because they’re so used to thinking about what can happen that when things actually do happen, they can actually be quite strong and bold, because there’s a kind of readiness they have, and sometimes they underestimate their own strength. But the strength is there nonetheless. Any other myths or misconceptions about six that you would name?

 

Uranio

Actually, I just want to say that sometimes sixes find it a little harder to find their types, because they question it. And they believe that they are not quite like that, so they try to see the exceptions first, or what is not very accurate or find out if they are, you know, just being wrapped in what they are thinking or doing. So, validation, reaffirmation is very important to understand this feature of many sixes. But it’s not about misconceptions though, I think that sometimes people just think that they are too insecure, but it’s really testing for danger, for inconsistencies and so on.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And I think when sixes do the work of getting in touch with their fear and learning to be more present with it and learning to really own all their qualities, that makes them strong and courageous, they can really be people who are both humble but also very powerful.

 

Jingle

Type seven.

 

Beatrice

Last but not least, we always make sevens wait till the end, it drives them crazy! Sometimes called “The epicurist” or “The visionary”, or “The adventurer”. The focus of attention for sevens is on the future, on planning for fun and pleasure, on looking at what’s positive and even reframing negatives into positives, on whatever is really interesting or stimulating to think about or experience, on having multiple options so that you can avoid constraints, or maintaining a sense of freedom and freedom to choose. And they avoid having their freedom limited or curtailed in any way. They also avoid, and this can be a big blind spot for sevens, they avoid feeling painful or uncomfortable feelings. Part of the focus on what’s positive is an unconscious drive to avoid feeling pain. And when I say pain it could be anxiety, it could be hurt, it could be any number or range of negative feelings that sevens sometimes fear. Again, often unconsciously, they feel that if they allow that feeling in, they’ll be trapped in it forever. And seven sometimes don’t relate to being fearful even though they’re one of the core fear triads, five six and seven, the head types have as a core emotion fear. They do have a fear of suffering. And again, sometimes this isn’t very conscious. Their strengths are that they tend to be optimistic and enthusiastic. They’re innovative, out of the box thinkers, they tend to be adventurous, they love going on vacation and planning a trip, traveling to different places. They’re very fun loving, they’re future oriented and they can be real visionaries. The challenges, however are what I alluded to before, the value of pain, the value of sitting in discomfort, the way that if you go toward your pain, there is something that you’re avoiding, that’s making you have a hard time focusing, or that drives you to distract yourself. And also learning to live within limitations, also learning to focus. Sevens can sometimes have a hard time focusing on one thing at a time because their mind, they’re said to have monkey mind, their mind skips around and thinks of a lot of different things all at once. But when they can engage their darker emotions more and learn to be more in the present, that helps them. What else do you think it’s important for people to know about type seven?

 

Uranio

I think it’s very central the tendency for them to seek for multiple options, multiple alternatives to everything they do. Like the seek for freedom in not feeling caught in only one course of action of any kind. So, sevens make sure to open up possibilities and keep the windows open. Now, this comes to a cost. Because it becomes not very easy to finish projects when pleasure is not anymore present, and they jump from one thing to another at times. So, this is essential to understand about sevens, because many other things come from that. Even the positive thinking comes from that, because I want to keep options open, I will get enthusiastic about everything all the time, because I’m always changing. So, if sevens want to change for better, they need to stop changing so much, you know. So, it’s important to understand that this is a limitation that they have. They hate limits but this limits them. Now, another important thing to understand is that sevens avoid pain by means of planning for their lives, all the time, in ways that will avoid suffering and pain. So, they need to receive life as it is more often and live what life is bringing, literally, instead of just trying to live only the bright side of life.

 

Beatrice

So, what about myths or stereotypes about sevens?

 

Uranio

I think there’s a big one, thinking that sevens are all only optimistic. Yes, they look very optimistic and they communicate optimistically, but in the inside, they can be very pessimistic about a few things. Like, they believe that if they get in touch with pain, pain will never end, this is not very optimistic. So, this is one myth what else?

 

Beatrice

I think sometimes people think that sevens are only flaky or unreliable, that they can’t make a commitment. And certainly, some sevens can be this way but, I think overall, most sevens can really make a commitment. Many of my seven friends are in long term committed relationships and quite happy ones. Also, I think sevens want to be taken seriously. And sometimes the way they behave can lead to people taking them lightly. But I think this is not what they want, and often not who they are. I think that’s another one. And also, I would say one more is that sevens never feel pain. I think some sevens can be open to it. And so, it’s a little bit like fours, the stereotype that if you’re happy you can’t be a four, sometimes if a seven has, you know, opened up to some pain or has gone through some difficulty in life, and are, in a way, forced to engage with some darker emotions, they can go there and they can actually be quite deep. So, I think that can be a stereotype that they’re not capable of a certain kind of depth of emotion.

 

Uranio

Right. And when you see a seven who’s truly developing and evolving, you will see someone who looks more serious, who’s really grounded and who’s doing a few things at a time. Maybe even only one thing at a time, more focused and having a lot of commitment. A lot of even detail orientation, being grounded at the moment, not just in the future, as they are. That can happen. You know, sevens who develop get there. But of course, in personality, when they are still not there, It’s all the opposite.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I think that’s a really well stated explanation of what happens when sevens do some inner work. They can be very balanced and be still very positive and happy, but coming from a more grounded place. Coming from a place where they’re capable of focusing and not being so overactive, not needing to pay attention to too many things at one time. Sometimes it’s said they have Bright Shiny Object Syndrome. They can be more sober; they can be more down to earth than sometimes they are when they’re less self-aware.

 

Uranio

Right, I think Bea, for this podcast, it’s useful to add an observation now, not only for sevens, but for all nine types. It’s useful if we think of the nine types as leaving paradoxes. Like, these descriptions that we provided are descriptions of the nine personalities, when people are not very evolved, but we also talked about the path of development, and what happens with each type, when they follow it. So, there was a totally different description towards the end, which is sometimes the opposite of what we had been describing. So, there is this side and that other side and they are like two poles, and we are in between them, somehow. Many times, closer to personality, but sometimes, you know, in the middle. And this brings us an understanding that there is a tension inside between two concepts of who I am. And understanding this tension and even maximizing this tension, has to do with good inner work.

 

Beatrice

Yes, the enneagram needs to be thought of as having two dimensions, or at least two, one the horizontal, in which there are nine different types and all types are essentially equal in terms of their capacities and their challenges, but also a vertical dimension, that is what you were talking about that there are different levels of awareness and different levels of consciousness. And so, we need to always think about that. And what we’ve been describing today is a little bit the archetype, kind of the middle. And how when they’re less self-aware they can look a little bit different from when they’ve done some inner work. How they can also look different in terms of what they are like when they’re healthier. So, it’s important to remember that and I’m glad we’re ending on that point.

 

Uranio

Now it’s time for our top five Bea.

 

Jingle

Top five.

 

Uranio

By the end of each of our podcasts, we select a top five theme, anything enneagram. And what is it today?

 

Beatrice

Today we’re talking about our top five look-alikes. Type confusions we’ve seen the most. So, different types, pairs of types really, that get confused with one another when you’re trying to find your type. It really helps to understand some of the differences between types that can look alike, or be confused with one another. So, do you want to start? what’s your number five?

 

Uranio

Before I say it. Let me just say that you and I have different backgrounds on the enneagram. Meaning that you grew up in the US and you did more work there and I did more work in Brazil, Latin America and also in other continents. And I think that may point out just some differences between our answers. Also, the fact that I worked a lot in business for many, many years. And you, also did a lot of work in business, but you’re mainly psychotherapist. Then, there might be different experiences here. I’m expecting that there are some differences between us.

 

Beatrice

But not me. Yeah, let’s see.

 

Uranio

Okay, so my fifth one is a draw. I chose two different combinations.

 

Beatrice

So, this is your top six.

 

Uranio

Yeah, top six. But I can’t tell which one was more common in my career. So, it’s a draw for me. So, it’s the difference between six and nine. Because I think that these two types are the ones that usually find it harder to know they are either six or nine, and many times they narrow down to these two options and they don’t know where to go. So, some nines, although everybody thinks they are calm, they think they are a little anxious on the inside. And some sixes, you know, especially self-preservation sixes, they tend to be very agreeable, not all sixes. They are not on the inside, but in the outside, they seem very long people and sometimes they get confused with nines. Now, the second option for me as number five, and sorry that I’m sort of cheating having two different options for my fifth. But the second option is between two and six. I think that they sometimes look alike, because sixes can be very warm and friendly, and twos can be also a little doubtful. But it has to do with subtypes, especially the self-preservation subtype for both. What is your fifth?

 

Beatrice

My fifth is seven and two. I think sometimes seven and two get confused because they’re both upbeat and positive. They both can be a bit hedonistic, especially the self-preservation two. The social seven in particular, and again I know we’re referring to subtypes and some of you may not know what these mean yet, but we will be talking about subtypes in future podcasts. The social seven can be more service oriented, or focused on supporting others, and I’ve just seen a lot of people who thought they were seven and ended up being a two, usually that’s the case. Every once in a while, someone who thought they were two ends up being a seven, usually a social seven.

 

Uranio

Right, that’s a good one. Yeah, I definitely agree that there are many confusions about that. What is your fourth?

 

Beatrice

My fourth is one and five. Now, usually this concerns the social one, which can look a lot like a five, but I have run into people, fairly frequently, who think there are five and ended up being one, or think they’re one and end up being a five. I think there are some similarities in terms of being intellectual, in terms of liking to be alone and working independently, wanting things to be a certain way, things like that.

 

Uranio

Right, I see that. But I actually chose the confusion between six and one, not five and one for my fourth. And this is because, you know, we sometimes say for sixes that 10% of risk occupies 90% of the mind space, the headspace. And for ones it’s something similar, it’s hard to tell the difference, which is 10% of error occupies 90% of the headspace. Sometimes it’s tricky because the end result might look alike. Now, they both can be anxious and ones, although they’re body types, sometimes look like being a little more mental. So, yeah, there is some confusion around that at times. And sixes can be very responsible and dutiful. And sometimes that can be seen as a bit oneish. Now, my third is, I think it will surprise you, but I looked back and saw that there were a lot of mistyping situations about these two, especially in business. So, it’s four and three. So, why have I chosen this? I think that people don’t get too much in doubt between these two types consciously, but I think there are many mistakes made. Because of this combination of four and three. Not as much threes end up thinking they are fours. At times, but not as much as fours who thought they were three.

 

Beatrice

Especially self-preservation fours.

 

Uranio

Yes, but sometimes also sexual fours. I think both have a tendency to see themselves as being threes. So that was my third. What is your third?

 

Beatrice

My third is, and I think this is another one you see in business a lot, especially among men, and that is three and eight. I think especially social three. Eight and three can both be very assertive, direct, hardworking. Very action oriented, goal oriented, very competitive, even aggressive in some cases. And so, I see this a lot where someone can’t decide if they’re a three or an eight. Especially in a leadership position, you know, both of these are types that you find a lot amongst leaders.

 

Uranio

Yeah. Great. Okay, so my second is nine and two. Because, you know, both of these types, look outside. A lot of times to other people, they lose touch with themselves, in different ways, but they do. They are outer oriented, and many other similarities between the two that I’m sure you agree with.

 

Beatrice

So, this is number two for you, right?

 

Uranio

Number two for me.

 

Beatrice

So, number two for me is one and six, which you had in your top five. And then for all the same reasons you said, I won’t repeat them, but I see them as both being dutiful and sometimes, you know, get described as perfectionistic or particular about how things happen, implementation, things like that. So, for my number one, I had two and nine.

 

Uranio

So, tell us more about this confusion, what do you think?

 

Beatrice

This is the one I see the most. Twos and nines can look very much alike from the outside, and I see a lot of people mistyping themselves as one or the other. One of the first times I took an enneagram assessment I came out as a nine, and we know a lot of online tests that are not necessarily accurate, I came out as a nine. But I’m actually a two. But I think sometimes it can be… not only this is a common look alike but it can actually be really hard to tell apart. In terms of both of them having an orientation towards focusing on others, on being helpful and supportive, on avoiding conflict and wanting to create harmony, mediating and being diplomatic. There are very much similar and it can be a difficult matter to figure out if you’re actually one or the other.

 

Uranio

I agree with that. Yeah, it’s definitely very hard. Now, that was my second, and I had to look back and see what was the actual combination that produce more doubts for students. And, as I have worked in business, and most of the time, in Brazil my home country, I need to say that, by far, the biggest talk was between three and seven. This was really common for me. And mainly because Brazil is a sevenish culture. And we’re down to seven and many other types. But I think that these two types are both very positive, optimistic. They look to the future a lot. They do a lot of things at the same time, many times they multitask. And they can have not only a positive outlook, but they communicate in positive ways. Like sometimes we say mostly for threes that the communication patterns are like advertising. And they seem to be, you know, self-confident and happy about themselves. So, there are many ways that they can look alike. Now, there are many important differences. One of them, we tell sometimes in the form of a joke. It’s that threes really need other people to like them, while sevens like themselves a lot, already, they don’t necessarily need others to like them. You know, to me this is a little bit the difference between vanity for threes and a little bit of narcissism, not pathological, for sevens. Another difference is how hard it is to focus for seven. While it is not that hard usually for threes.

 

Beatrice

That’s the number one way I tell the difference when someone’s struggling between three and seven, which happens a lot.

 

Uranio

I also see that, while threes shape-shift all the time, like, they act differently to people of different groups, sevens don’t do that much. They actually try to make other people shift to adapt to them. So, sevens are known for, you know, dealing with people from different levels in the company hierarchy the same way, like, with a simple person or the president, you know, they don’t even adapt language at times. They don’t watch out for that. So, yeah, this was my number one.

 

Beatrice

If you want more information about how to tell the difference between pairs of types that can look alike, there is an appendix at the end of “The complete enneagram” that has a full description of the similarities and differences between all the pairs of all the types. So that’s just something for you to know about, as a reference, in case you want to understand more about the look-alikes that we talked about or even some of the ones we didn’t talk about.

 

Uranio

And we certainly hope that if you’re trying to find your type that this podcast has helped you. But if you are not sure yet, don’t panic! Because it’s really hard at times to find out our type on the enneagram. But just know if you keep reading, if you keep following our podcast, you will get there. And when you do, then you’ll find out wonderful things about yourself. Sometimes we say that some people take longer to find their personality types on the enneagram than they do in other models, but when they find out what type they are, they find out much more about themselves.

 

Beatrice

And by the way, it might not all be wonderful, but it will all be a good learning experience. So, this has been the Enneagram 2.0 podcast. I’m Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And I am Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

Join us again next time as we talk about all things enneagram.

 

Uranio

Thank you.

 

Unknown Speaker

Please click on like to help spread the word about our podcast.

 

Uranio

Thanks for listening.

 

Jingle:

Enneagram 2.0, find your personality, Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. What’s your type, what’s your subtype, so much you can learn.  You can be amazing go ahead and transform. It’s for yourself and others grow and follow the flow. And also, for the planet, let your mind blow. It’s from Bea and Uranio, time for you to know and be your best self with enneagram 2.0. Psychology, self-mastery, work and relationships, spirituality. Come and join the podcast, oh yeah, will be fun. Explore the challenges that from now you’ll overcome. Enneagram 2.0. Tune in, it’s your personality. Enneagram 2.0 Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, Hey! Enneagram 2.0 tune in now.

 

Enneagram 2.0 podcast

03. I Know my Type. Now What?

 

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST

READ THE TRANSCRIPTION

Beatrice

Hello, and welcome to the Enneagram 2.0 podcast. I’m Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And I’m Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

And today we’re talking about?

 

Jingle

What is the topic today?

 

Beatrice

What to do once you know your type.

 

Uranio

Yeah, that’s very important. Grateful to be talking about this. What about you Bea?

 

Beatrice

Yes, I encounter people all the time who say to me, you know, I learned my type. But now what do I do?

 

Uranio

Yeah, I also see many people saying that. But I also see people who say the opposite, like “Oh, I found my type and that changed my life.” And I don’t like that. Because finding out what you’re type is may bring you a an “aha” moment, but not transformation. After knowing your type, you need to commit to sets of practices and know exactly which are the most important ones. And then, after doing a little bit of hard work, you will perhaps get to a point when you can say you have been transformed.

 

Beatrice

So what I hear you saying is that finding out what your type is, is really the beginning of a process, not the end or not an end in itself.

 

Uranio

Thank you for saying this. That’s what I meant.

 

Beatrice

Because when you find your type, if you just stop there, then the enneagram becomes just about diagnosis or description. It’s easy for it to become a defense. As in, you know, “Well I’m a two, of course I did that. You just have to get over it and realize who I am”. When really, we’re much more than our type and the enneagram is all about growth.

 

Uranio

Yeah, we can feel very interested, attracted to the descriptions. But it’s actually even more than what you said, I think Bea. Because when we find out our types, our mind works in a way that we put ourselves in a box even further. It’s not the enneagram, it’s any typology. And the enneagram is driven, as our beloved teacher David Daniels used to say, it’s not to put anyone in the box. It’s for us to get out of the box that we have already put ourselves in. Right?! So, the idea is not to stereotype and see that it’s not because you’ve just learned what your type is, that you’ll start to do even more of that or ask people “Now you need to understand me. It’s because I’m a two or five”. That would be justifying. You’re saying, “This is just the way I am, and I’m not going to change.” When the enneagram is really all about change. For better, not for worse.

 

Beatrice

Yes. Maybe worse temporarily, sometimes.

 

Uranio

But it’s not really worse. It’s just an impression that it’s worse. It’s hard. Sometimes it’s not the thing that makes us happy to find out our patterns.

 

Beatrice

it can be a vulnerable experience to find out your type. And it makes sense that some people might want to run away from that.

 

Uranio

Or get distracted by the shallower parts of enneagram descriptions of type.

 

Beatrice

Right. It can become a parlor game or something people play with. And actually, the enneagram is a very powerful system that can facilitate a lot of personal growth. But we do need to learn to use it the right ways. And we need to be motivated to really grow.

 

Uranio

Yeah. And on the other hand, it doesn’t need to be boring. Like, after knowing what our type is, the work to be done doesn’t need to be boring. It can be engaging, right?! Because it’s hard enough in itself. So, it’s also nice to make it a little funnier, for instance, doing it with other people.

 

Beatrice

Sure, exactly. I once told a friend of mine in graduate school about the enneagram and she loved it. She used to say I love talking about it. It’s just fun to talk about. But of course, talking about it is just one level of really putting it to use in your life. So what do you think some people can do if they have learned their type and they want to start to use the enneagram in a sincere way to develop themselves? What are the things they need to do first, to really use it right?

 

Uranio

Well, I think that understanding the type patterns in the right way is essential as a first step.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I like it when people say that the enneagram is a sense making framework. We can use it to help make sense of the things that we observe in ourselves. Because the main method is self-observation. And by self-observation, we mean something really specific, right? Like really watching everything you do all the time. To the point where you learn new things about what you’re doing in the moment.

 

Uranio

Yeah, once I had a student at a workshop, who was an engineer, and he said that he found out that the enneagram descriptions were like user manuals for the nine types of people.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. You got your user manual.

 

Uranio

So, finding out your main patterns is very critical. And this is the reason why you and I really try to stick to what is most important to be understood about each type. And we usually talk about the type’s passion, the type’s fixation, or the attention pattern, and not much more. If we talk about too much, we will lose the necessary focus on what to work on. Now, when we know those essential core parts to observe, then we need to see the multiple ways that they play out in our lives, both directly and indirectly. Do you agree with this? What’s your take?

 

Beatrice

I do, I think that we need to start with the basics. When we’re using the enneagram, we need to use it to help us know, what do we pay attention to when we’re developing what they call an inner observer. When we self-observe, we’re really studying ourselves in an interesting way. Just like scientists study the natural world. Part of using the enneagram is using it as a guide to study yourself to the point where you know more and more consciously what you’re doing, and you make more of your unconscious patterns conscious.

 

Uranio

So, I love when you say in different courses that we teach together that the first task is developing the inner observer or the self-observation skill, right? Or the observant eye as Gurdjieff used to call it. Would you mind talking a little more about that on how it works? What specifically people could do?

 

Beatrice

Sure, I think this is one of the things I like most about the enneagram, is the way it gives us a way to both conceptualize and actually do the work of self-observation. So, the way I think of it is sort of like, you need to go to the gym and lift weights if you want to make your arm stronger. And if you want to make the inner observer stronger, you practice meditation, you practice mindfulness, you practice observing yourself, then doing the things that you do every day. So just noticing more. when I was a psychotherapist, I used to give a first homework task to new clients, a task of noticing, you know, watch what you do and start to study yourself and learn. So, you see, you know what you’re doing in a whole new way. And I think the enneagram is really good as a guide for self-observation, telling us what to look for. Because if you start from nothing, just sort of trying to observe yourself, you know, you’ll be doing some good mindfulness, but you may not be really knowing what to look for. And it can take you a while. So, in a way I think of the enneagram is kind of a shortcut to understanding yourself in a more efficient way.

 

Uranio

Right. And soon, during this podcast, we’re going to talk about what to look for at each type. But first, I think it’s important that we differentiate between self-observing and self-criticizing.

 

Beatrice

Oh, good, yes.

 

Uranio

Because many people who come to know the enneagram patterns, when they find out their own type, they start a very damaging process of self-blaming.

 

Beatrice

It’s self-observation without self-judgment, that’s really key. And sometimes I think we forget to say that, but it needs to be neutral. That’s why the inner witness, as they call it, or the internal self-observer is, by definition, nonjudgmental. So, it’s a kind of neutral witness saying, watching what you do, so that the you that is observing and the you that is actually doing what you do, are two separate things inside yourself. And as you build the muscle of the inner witness, you develop more and more of an ability to truly observe yourself from a slight distance. And in that space between the part of you that’s observing, and the part of you that’s just doing or thinking or feeling is the space in which you have to make a different choice at one point. And that’s when you start becoming more conscious, and not more mechanical. When we’re in our type pattern, we just do the same thing we do all the time, without really seeing that we’re repeating ourselves, until we look. And then we can sometimes realize, wow, I always pay attention to this, or I always get angry about this, or I always avoid feeling sad about this. And once we start recognizing that we’re doing, we can make a lot of progress on our growth path.

 

Uranio

Yes, so if you, who’s listening to us right now, are familiar with meditation techniques, then you will know that you observe your thoughts, your emotions, and your sensations, without fighting against them. You will also know that you need to work on relaxation, acceptance and non judgement. And this is all that is included in the self-observation method that we are talking about. So, the idea is to really witness your patterns playing out and don’t even try to contain them, at first, just see them. Because they’re too strong in the beginning, if we go completely against them, or if we try to change all of a sudden, you know, personality will react against that. A little bit like what psychologists call abreaction. But it’s slightly different than that. And that means that the personality will claim her space back.

 

Beatrice

Right. Another way to say it is, you know, when we’re in personality, a lot of our habits are mechanical. Right? When you press a certain button, a certain person reacts a certain way. So, getting less mechanical, involves watching ourselves, understanding what we do, starting to understand why we do what we do, and building that ability to observe yourself, and when you’re ready, to make a different choice. But I think what you’re saying is really important, we can’t change too quickly, really, because as Gurdjieff said, and Gurdjieff is one of the mystical teachers behind the enneagram, he would say, don’t try to change what you do too quickly, just self-observe. Because if you try to change something, another part of the machine that is you will go out of whack. So, you need to be able to recognize what’s going on with the person and sort of time what your interventions are.

 

Uranio

And he also said something funny, but smart, he said that we need to do things differently for the sake of transformation. But after a while, before personality starts fighting against your change, you allow personality to restructure and give it a treat. So, deal with personality like you deal with your pet. Give it a treat, and say “Now you can reestablish, dear personality. And by the way, next time I do the self-observation work, allow me to stay for five more minutes”.

 

Beatrice

Right, because our personality is a defensive self-structure. But it also interestingly, resists change when we try to grow and change our personality. You know, it asserts Itself, it wants to stay in power in a way. And so, we may not recognize what we all need to do to both respect personality as the defense system that helped us survive, but also challenge it at the right moments.

 

Uranio

Yeah. So, identify the main patterns, observe them in action in subtleties, then self-observe, negotiate with personality. What else Bea? What else comes right after finding out what our enneagram type is?

 

Beatrice

Well, you know, I think there’s a whole list of things that you can do after you find your enneagram type. And I think we could probably put them in a list of priorities from simplest to more complicated. So, it depends on where you are in your path, how long you’ve known the enneagram, if you’re just new.

 

Uranio

Or someone can have been doing inner work before knowing the enneagram, and it’s perfectly valid to do inner work without knowing the enneagram. The enneagram is not completely essential. It’s more like a booster for inner work, and it’s a shortcut.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, exactly. But I think after observing yourself, sometimes I think the enneagram can help you get a window into why you do what you do. That’s kind of a step further, it’s sort of what I did as a psychotherapist, what you might do if you decide to go to therapy, things like that. But I think there’s a whole list of things you could do, you could start getting in touch with emotions you tend to avoid being in touch with. So that might be looking at emotional patterns.

 

Uranio

Because there is a pattern per type and per subtype, which is something we’re going to talk about in the future here on our podcast. So, you need to know how specifically emotions play out for you. If you are more in touch with them, or less so.

 

Beatrice

Right, and you may be in touch with one emotion, but not in touch with a different emotion. And one of the things the enneagram helps us with is see and notice and understand those patterns.

 

Uranio

But why do you think it’s important to do emotional work? After knowing your type? Why emotions?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think in some ways, we get really stuck, when we aren’t really in touch with our own emotion, we may just be going through the emotions and not really be putting all our energy into growth. But putting some energy into avoiding our emotions.

 

Uranio

Yes, I agree with you again. And I think that the emotional center of intelligence needs to be engaged as soon as possible after we find out our type, because it has a very central position, if I can say that, in our psyche. And dealing with emotional development is important for all of us who are engaging with inner work in the beginning, and it has to do with psychological development. And it seems really important, right Bea?

 

Beatrice

Right, definitely. We need to make sure that we have access to our emotions. Because unconsciously, we might avoid anger, we might avoid being aware of our fear or sadness. And to the extent that we do that, we’re kind of avoiding being conscious of our full self. So, it’s important to do that. Also, emotion, when we’re conscious of it, helps integrate the different parts of our brain. It helps us stop expanding energy working against ourselves by not being aware of certain emotions, and almost stifling our emotional energy, to allowing ourselves to welcome and allow what we naturally feel. And so, I think emotions are central and being able to have access to all the basic emotions is very important.

 

Uranio

Yeah, I think that it’s useful to understand that each of the nine types of personalities represent the specific ways we limit the use of our hearts and minds. So, it’s our specific strategy to use more some ways of being and feeling in the world, and not the other ones. So, doing emotional work means actually going beyond what our pattern is. into, you know, bigger spectrum of emotional experiences. And then eventually, we will need to do the same with the head.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, exactly. I think being healthy means being in touch with all our emotions, it means, you know, like you say, the next thing being aware of our mental patterns, which can mean core beliefs that we hold, often beliefs that aren’t true, that are associated with our personality type. But I think another really key thing that might be good to talk about is blind spots. Because I think one of the things that enneagram is really, really good at, in almost a way that’s kind of miraculous, and this is to me, one of the things that makes the enneagram so powerful, is it really accurately defines what are the blind spots of the nine types. And the problem with blind spots is we don’t know what we don’t know. And the reason why it’s so important to understand blind spots is just because if we’re not conscious of something it doesn’t mean it doesn’t drive us and have an impact on others. Oftentimes, other people can see things about us that we can’t see. And those things get in the way of relationships, they make us stay unconscious. So, I think being with blind spots is a really important piece of work that the enneagram can help with, whether it’s early on in your work with the enneagram or even later as you use it to develop, you know, over a period of time.

 

Uranio

And we’ll also talk about some of the blind spots for each of the nine types. But one thing that helps us be in touch with what we don’t see is to ask for feedback from others. And I mean, after we know what our type is, we might, for instance, provide a short description of what we have just found out about ourselves and ask people to tell us about how, you know, they see that in us.

 

Beatrice

Yes, because I think we all can get defensive easily around feedback, it can be hard to know what people really think about us. But we need feedback, especially around our blind spots. Because as Naranjo, one of the main authors behind the enneagram types says, we’re blind to the degree that we think ourselves to be not blind. We’re blind to the degree that we think ourselves free and free of blind spots. So, I wonder if it would be good to go through the nine types and talk a little bit about some of the main patterns to self-observe, some of the main emotions to be aware of, maybe a couple of blind spots and something about the growth path? What do you think?

 

Uranio

Yeah, let’s just start with type eight as we usually do.

 

Beatrice

Okay, sounds good. Talking about the body types first.

 

Uranio

Yes, the body triad or the instinctual triad, starting with type eight.

 

Jingle

Type eight.

 

Beatrice

So, what would you say are some of the main patterns that eights should be aware of?

 

Uranio

Well, first one for me is to see how they expend energy and become excessive. Sometimes in words, sometimes in gestures, sometimes simply, you know, rushing through life and trying to be actually larger than life. This is one pattern, what would you add?

 

Beatrice

This may be a little bit advanced, but I think it’s so core, it makes sense to mention it first. And to start to be aware of how they may overdo their strength, sort of taking on a lot, working really hard, and not be very aware of their weaknesses or their vulnerability. I think at the core of the type eight personality is a pattern of denying vulnerability and weakness and thinking it’s a bad thing, and then overcompensating through being powerful and strong. And to the degree that an eight is not aware of their vulnerable emotions, their softer side, they can overdo their power in ways that get them in trouble or they can not realize their impact on others.

 

Uranio

So, the excess that we were talking about which sometimes the enneagram calls lust, is a consequence of not making oneself vulnerable. Now, by vulnerable, a few things that we mean are feeling fear, feeling sadness, feeling hurt, feeling tired, feeling insecure, lack of self confidence in general.

 

Beatrice

Right, all of internal emotional patterns, right?

 

Uranio

Even inferiority complex.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. Eights can be really out of touch with all these emotional experiences. And they can be much more aware of being strong, expressing assertiveness, being direct with people, wanting to take on big challenges, and sometimes expressing anger. Eights tend to have an easier time with anger, they often say they experience it as energy. It can energize them, and they can get angry at someone and then it goes away. They know they don’t dwell on their anger; they can express it and then it’s over.

 

Uranio

Right. And then also they don’t find it easy to see the impact they have on others. They’re always going to the next thing and being very concrete, objective. And they don’t see that some people feel not too easy with how they communicated or what they said and in what situation.

 

Beatrice

Right, right, right. Not being in touch with vulnerability sometimes means not being aware of how they come across. Because they may be just asserting themselves and not really recognizing that they’re overdoing something, for instance. And I think we’re already sort of naming the blind spot and the growth path, right? it can be pretty straightforward for eights, the more they get in touch with their vulnerable feelings, softer emotions, their sensitivity to some degree. We often say that eights are, you know, they can look very tough but they’re marshmallows inside. They have really big hearts. They tend to be very generous. They tend to care a lot about people, but sometimes because they’re not in touch with their more vulnerable feelings. They may not express their sensitivity. So, people may not understand that they have a softer side.

 

Uranio

Yeah. So, noticing that softer side, observing the reactivity against showing it to other people, and then finding out one or two people that you will be willing to show that vulnerable side a little more to them. And having moments when you’re going to do that. Counter instinctively.

 

Beatrice

Yes. I think going against these patterns needs to happen after self-observation. And step by step.

 

Uranio

Yes, like 10 minutes per day, or two minutes.

 

Beatrice

Or like you say, with one or two people that you really trust.

 

Uranio

Right, right. Anything else about eights?

 

Beatrice

I think that’s good.

 

Jingle

Type nine.

 

Uranio

Good. So, what about nine?

 

Beatrice

So, I think some of the key patterns for nines to self-observe are noticing how they avoid conflict, and noticing what that’s about. Oftentimes, nines will believe that if there’s a conflict with someone, the relationship will be destroyed. Or there will be a separation that occurs that will never be repaired. And that’s, of course, the fear that’s underlying the avoidance of conflict. But for nines, it can just feel like I’m just trying to stay comfortable. I’m just avoiding tension trying to maintain a sense of harmony with the people around me, in my environment, that’s what the conscious sense of it can be. So, it can be very important for nines to notice how they tend to focus on others a lot, and not so much on themselves. How they tend to go along with the agendas of others, they go along to get along, but tend to not be so aware of their own inner agenda, their own desires, their own preferences, their own opinions sometimes. And to become more aware of all those things that are connected to themselves.

 

Uranio

And when nines look at other people, they feel more energized and ready to help and do, be very active. There’s really more vital force and, you know, life energy inside when the person is looking outside. Now, when they look inside that energy goes lower. And observing this pattern to me is essential.

 

Beatrice

Yes, and observing how they might distract themselves when it comes to needing to do the most important thing for themselves, if they may have a big priority that’s about them. And suddenly, they need to go clean out the cupboard, or they need to do something that’s not so important. That gets them distracted from the main priority that they really need to do for themselves. Right.

 

Uranio

And the blind spot here is not knowing what my agenda is, or not asserting what I want my agenda to be. So, I just go along, as you said, and I forget to, you know, share my opinion. And eventually I start even not knowing what my opinion is.

 

Beatrice

Yes, eights, nines, and ones all share a tendency to self-forget. And nines are the core point of that self-forgetting triad. And so, they can really go to sleep to themselves. And they’re actually the prototype for all of us. All types tend to go to sleep to our real being, the inner sense of ourselves. And nines do that the most. And so, noticing how they tend to avoid being aware of their own priorities, their own feelings, their own preferences. In the beginning, when I’ve worked with nines, one of the things that’s hard for them, is when you ask them what they want, they don’t know. And then it can be really hard and painful, that sense of not knowing, like, “what do I do that I don’t know what I want?”

 

Uranio

But then, they feel a certain discomfort. Which might be difficult or bad, but at the same time, is the way out of the pattern already. So, feeling uncomfortable is also strategic.

 

Beatrice

Yes, tolerating discomfort is a big growth opportunity for nines and also becoming more comfortable with not knowing. Being able to have compassion for themselves when they don’t know and realize that there’s probably good reasons that they don’t know. And so, being able to give themselves some room to sit with something until they start registering more of a sense of what they really want. Nines need to get in touch with anger. And they tend to go to sleep to it because they want to avoid conflict. And they need to look at the blind spots of the fear of conflict, just the need to avoid discomfort, and anger, which is a big blind spot. And to some degree, their own desires and preferences. And the growth path, of course, is becoming more aware of their anger, learning that conflict can actually bring people closer together and not just create separation, and learn to tolerate some disharmony and focus more on themselves and not just on the people around them.

 

Jingle

Type one.

 

Beatrice

So, what about type one? What do you think are some key patterns that ones need to self-observe?

 

Uranio

I think that irritation, which has to do with anger in the broader sense. But you know, feeling all the time that sensitivity that something is not quite right, or someone. And sometimes it’s myself. So being very either anxious or irritated about that, observing that pattern is really essential. And the second thing is paying attention to how loud your inner critic voice is, and how often it shows up in the one’s life. That is much more than average. And why do you pay attention so much to that and not to your impulses for pleasure, for relaxation? So, observing that that is much above average for you.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. Noticing the activity of the inner critic, noticing how you tend to control yourself or over control yourself. Notice saying how, if you’re one, you tend to put a lot of pressure on yourself to be really responsible and meet very high standards. And not cut yourself very much slack. Like you’re saying, not leaving room for pleasure or fun or relaxation, but just always keeping the pressure on to get it right, to do the right thing. Whether it’s trying to get it perfect or trying to make the world out there more perfect. Ones can tend to suppress or repress their anger. But also, when you repress your anger, you repress a lot of other feelings like joy, happiness, sadness.

 

Uranio

They become the blind spot, actually, you know, I see only what I think needs to be done. And I forget about having fun, relaxation.

 

Beatrice

Only express appropriate emotions or impulses or thoughts. I have to really put a lid on a lot of emotions and things that I might want to express but I judge as wrong or inappropriate.

 

Uranio

It’s part of human nature to be flawed, full of flaws, and also limited and simply, you know, being tired at times. And paying attention to that is good. Like, when you maybe want to have some rest time or leisure before duty. The thing to observe is how 80% of your head space gets occupied with 20% of problems around it. And how you might want to change that equation.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I think a big blind spot for ones is anger, like you said, they tend to relate to feeling irritation or resentment, maybe being self-righteous from time to time. But really, these are all derivatives of anger. And ones tend to put a lid on their anger to a greater or lesser extent. And they tend to not notice the impact of the way their anger might leak out, either in criticism of themselves or others or these anger derivatives. And the more they can get in touch with their anger, the more they can allow themselves to really get to the core of what they’re feeling and take the pressure off themselves to control themselves all the time.

 

Jingle

Type two.

 

Uranio

Should we move on to two?

 

Beatrice

Sure.

 

Uranio

Okay, so you are a two Bea.

 

Beatrice

I am a two.

 

Uranio

So, what are the main patterns to observe? If you, who’s listening, are also a two.

 

Beatrice

Yes, if you’re lucky enough or unlucky enough to be a two like me. So, I think it’s really important for twos to notice how much they focus on other people. And when they focus on other people so much, how they don’t focus so much on themselves. So, to notice how the focus is a lot on creating a positive impression on other people or creating a good connection with others, getting approval or being liked, and how much energy goes into that, to being important to others, especially the important people in your life. So that you can really see how much of your energy goes to reading other people, figuring out what they want, and delivering it. So that they will maybe meet your needs, if you have something that comes up that you want, or that you need them to take care of. But of course, a lot of this, you know, like for all the types, can be very unconscious. So, bringing to consciousness how you, as a two tend to not be in touch with what you need, but focus a lot on what other people need or how other people feel, as a way of making yourself important to others.

 

Uranio

Yes. So, I think that a good question to ask is, why do you put relationships first all the time? And what has been left out? Like, perhaps some tasks, some things that you like to do?

 

Beatrice

It’s funny when you said that, because I almost didn’t understand the question. I thought, well, what else is there besides relationships?

 

Uranio

You know, whatever is not relationship. Where is it?

 

Beatrice

Yes, yes. And I think there’s a way that we have an unconscious assumption that both we can control how other people feel, especially about us, but about things in general. And we can control the impression other people have of us. I remember one time I was in a group class, a group dynamics class. And one of the first exercises we did with each other, we got in small groups, and people shared their first impressions. And this one woman said to me what her first impressions were, and I couldn’t believe it, because everything she said was totally right. And I couldn’t believe she saw right through me. And I really saw how I have this fiction, this fantasy that I control how people will see me. And so, having a sense that we can create a certain impression, whatever impression we want to in the other person, whether it’s approval or being liked, or being seen in a certain positive way. And recognizing that we actually don’t have that much control, or we shouldn’t really need to. We can just be ourselves.

 

Uranio

Sometimes this implies doing a bad trade off inside oneself, which is, I will make sure that everybody will like me, but I detach from liking myself.

 

Beatrice

Yes, yes. And I kind of lose myself to the degree that I shape shift, or try to become what other people will like, and don’t really pay attention to who I really am. Because I fear that if I am who I really am, people won’t like me, or they’ll reject me.

 

Uranio

And sometimes I think that a good thing for twos to do in that growth path is to be a little less nice.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And it’s funny, because I think one of the emotional patterns is repressing emotions. And I remember having a thought when I was in my 20s, that I wanted people to like me, and I thought, what kind of people do people like, and I thought, well, people like nice people, but they don’t like angry people. So, I just won’t be angry. And when I was in my late 20s, I got some feedback from a friend that I never got angry. And that seemed really curious to me. But it was really true. So, I had repressed all the feelings I thought would be unacceptable to other people. And I kind of started losing myself. So, the blind spots, I think that us twos need to get more in touch with are our own feelings. And we have to learn to accept that they’re okay. Our own needs, certainly, because we tend to have a real big blind spot around our own needs. It’s almost as if we don’t have needs as a way of being of service or connecting with people through meeting their needs, but not being a burden. And I think just generally, like you said, this sense of the fear of being rejected, and thinking that we need to be able to be whoever people need us to be and avoid being real.

 

Uranio

I like when you’re a little bit angry Bea and also when you say what you need.

 

Beatrice

I feel very supported by that. Thank you.

 

Uranio

Yes.

 

Beatrice

That’s the growth path. I think it’s finding friends that you can say no to, and it’s okay that you can be a little bit angry with, that you can risk being more of who you really are, and know that it’s okay. They’ll still like you.

 

Uranio

Maybe just when you need something, you might want to be a little clear that you want my help.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I know. I’m bad at that.

 

Uranio

You’re much better than before, but…

 

Beatrice

With your encouragement.

 

Man

Let’s do a short break. The enneagram 2.0 podcast goes live every other Thursday on all main platforms. Stay tuned to learn more about yourself and others.

 

Woman

If you like this podcast, visit www.cp enneagram.com for much more great enneagram content.

 

Bea and Uranio teach in person inner work retreats and professional workshops all over the world. They happen twice a year in California, London, Shanghai, Sao Paulo and Cairo. And sometimes in other countries and US locations too. Hundreds of students from all places and levels of knowledge have joined these courses. You can see the full Chestnut Paes Enneagram, Academy calendar of events at www.cpenneagram.com,

 

Jingle

Type three.

 

Beatrice

So, I think a big three pattern is really getting lost in doing and working all the time, doing all the time, focusing on goals, and things like that. What do you think are some important three patterns or emotional patterns that are related to threes, they might need to get in touch with?

 

Uranio

I think that the shape shifting that you mentioned for twos applies here also, threes look outside to feel more than think, what other people expect from them, and they automatically become that. So, it’s a very unconscious process in which they adapt very quickly and without any effort. And it’s useful to observe that they change according to where they are, who they are speaking to, trying to sort of impress, and have a good image. It’s very unconscious at times, and threes don’t know that they are doing it. But if you ask, how is it not to adapt? They say, what is that?

 

Beatrice

Yes, yes. So, I think blind spots become for threes, feelings, their real feelings, and kind of their real self, which is the totality of their real feelings and needs and desires and preferences. So, they really lose a sense of who they really are. And sometimes when threes are really working on themselves on the growth path, one of the first important things they feel is this sense of confusion about who they really are, a sense of being lost or having a feeling of emptiness.

 

Uranio

Which is hard, but a good sign.

 

Beatrice

Yes. Because when they can get in touch with feelings and who they really are, they can stop the shape shifting and actually find out that they’re more effective, more productive, and they have better relationships.

 

Uranio

Right. And then observe really the attachment to goals and achievements and doing and something that is behind that, which is “I don’t really trust that people will like me for who I am, but only for what I do.”

 

Beatrice

Right, I have to earn liking and approval or appreciation through being a good performer.

 

Uranio

So, it seems that path of growth is risking, you know, just being and seeing what happens. People will like you.

 

Beatrice

Being instead of doing, feeling instead of always being in motion.

 

Uranio

Yeah. And seeing if there are people liking you still. And if you like yourself more for that, doing what do you want or, not doing at all.

 

Beatrice

Yes.

 

Uranio

Right. And asking the question, “What is it really that I want to do?” As opposed to: “What is it that if I do, I will be successful?”

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. And I think often the doorway into all of that is allowing more emotions. Sometimes people think that threes aren’t emotional, because, you know, their survival strategy is to do do do and turn the volume down on feelings. But when they really get in touch with their feelings, that leads right back to their real self.

 

Jingle

Type four.

 

Uranio

Key pattern for fours is noticing how, if you are four, how you pay attention much more to what is absent than to what is present. And then when something is absent, how you place your attention outside yourself, trying to find someone who has that, that you think you don’t have. And then how you sort of want to have that thing that the other person does.

 

Beatrice

Yes. So, in self-observation, one of the first tasks can be to notice how much you compare yourself to others, and how you tend to focus on what’s missing in yourself, or what others have, as you said, that you don’t have. And I think also to focus on how attached you might be to your internal emotional experience. Fours can be very internal, they can fantasize and be very involved in their internal emotional landscape, even to the point of getting over identified with their emotions, and not being able to take actions and, in some cases, taking too much action, and not being able to share or let go of emotions.

 

Uranio

So, one question to ask yourself might be, “what is there beyond the emotional experience that I’m missing?” And another thing is, “how would it really be, if I had more emotional calmness? Would it be really bad or it would help me?” And “am I spending way too much time inside myself in my inner world or, am I in touch with things as they are?” These are some questions to ask.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I agree. And I think it’s interesting because blind spots for fours can be positive things about themselves. It can be what’s good about them, because they can have a sense of inner deficiency.

 

Uranio

Yeah, yeah, that’s really true. Any other blind spots for fours or anything else for fours?

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I think that the growth path is really about having more compassion for themselves, noticing how they can sometimes amp up feelings or be a bit dramatic as a defense, they can sometimes feel melancholy and a bit depressed as a defense against other feelings that might be more threatening. So, really start to almost bring in more mental activity to really analyze how you’re feeling in order to not be so attached to different emotional experiences.

 

Uranio

And I think that a little bit opposed to what we said about threes, go to things like doing. A little less in touch with emotions.

 

Beatrice

Yeah. A little bit the opposite. We need to also say that fours, the three four subtypes are really different from one another. So even as I’m saying these things, I’m thinking it will also be good to listen to any podcast we do about subtypes, because the three fours are very different from one another. So, they have individual growth paths,

 

Uranio

Yes, and there will be individual paths of growth, then.

 

Jingle

Type five.

 

Uranio

Now, the best enneagram type. It’s because I’m a five, but it’s not the best at all. Let’s say, what are the patterns to observe? So, the first thing is disconnection, in my view, how we fives, maybe if you are five listening to me now, you will disconnect while I’m talking, and how we disconnect really all the time. Like you say something and I start thinking about things over what you’re saying. And I disconnect from my feelings. I disconnect from relationships, from being in life, I retract. And I want my privacy. Some people, when they hear descriptions, basic descriptions about five, they say I might be a five because I like privacy. And I say that’s not what happens with a five like me, it’s not about liking privacy, sometimes. it’s like, needing privacy every day. And if you don’t have it, you make it happen. Even if you are in public, there’s this interesting technology of building a bubble around you. And to be alone while with others.

 

Beatrice

Yes. So, it might also be important to observe how you can tend to be a bit controlling. So that you can make sure that you have your private space, and can have what you need, especially around regulating resources.

 

Uranio

Like time, space, energy. Like, when someone asks me if I can go with them somewhere. I may say yes. But in my head, I’m thinking “what time we will be back.” Right? So, it’s like, a certain amount of energy to do something with this crazy thought that I’ll run out of that. I just allow myself to be consumed by others.

 

Beatrice

Yes. So, we’re here in Egypt, and when we go out to dinner with our friends, I noticed you start getting very nervous if people want to order dessert, because it means we’re going to be there.

 

Uranio

People or you?

 

Beatrice

Me, and sometimes I order dessert just to bother you. Because I can see that you think, I can see the wheels turning in your mind, you’re thinking, “Oh, I’m gonna be here 35 more minutes. I’ll be alone 35 minutes later, or maybe 40 minutes later”.

 

Uranio

You know, as a five I’m very mental and rational. So, I think, well, dessert accounts for this much calories and the whole food that Bea had is much more. So, not calories, but you know, the energy you need. So why she just spent almost the same time having the whole meal and then the dessert. And that’s all my issue because I’m inside my head calculating. Actually, what I’m calculating is, when we are traveling and teaching together, when am I going to be in my hotel room alone, which is the best time of the day at times.

 

Beatrice

And I’m so glad, as a two, I’m learning to not feel rejected by that, thank you. You can’t wait to get away to be by yourself. But it’s funny, too, because any kind of delay that puts that time that you get to be alone off a little bit further, I can see how it makes you a little bit nervous.

 

Uranio

But good news for you is that, sometimes, it’s when I go be alone, it’s when I start appreciating how the time together was nice.

 

Beatrice

You can finally have your positive feelings about what we did.

 

Uranio

So, the pattern here to be observed is how we detach from the moment and how we detach from emotions, especially sharing what we are feeling. And we need to go be alone to access a little more of those. And how our attention goes a lot to information, knowledge. As opposed to things like relationships.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And a blind spot might be how relationships can actually nurture you and give you more energy and not just take energy away.

 

Uranio

And desserts also.

 

Beatrice

And desserts can also be a positive experience.

 

Uranio

And staying longer, talking to friends, not controlling time, it’s very hard. But it pays off when we as fives allow ourselves to be guided and taken. And I’d say that one blind spot for fives is just to not really be able to connect in the level that they think they are connecting. Sometimes there is an impression for fives that they are connected while others don’t think so. It’s like, if I’m exchanging information with you, I think that all is so wonderful, but you’re missing me being more there for you or present. And that happens with everybody. And also, another blind spot is how much we feel depleted of energy much more than other people. As if we need to control our resource of time. All the time.

 

Beatrice

It’s a little bit like if you believe in scarcity, but you have a blind spot around abundance, the whole world ends up feeling like it’s contributing to you not having enough of what you need, in terms of energy and time and space.

 

Uranio

Yeah. So enough of fives because it’s the time that I had spared talk about five.

 

Beatrice

Have we said enough about the growth path?

 

Uranio

What do you think?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think we did mention getting more in touch with feelings, noticing how relationships can support you and not just take away your private time.

 

Uranio

I would add been in the body. Yeah, because we are too heady. And the body is really not just a support for the head.

 

Jingle

Type six.

 

Uranio

Sixes. I think that sixes need to observe how 10% of risk occupies 90% of the headspace, like scanning for risks every time, everywhere, trying to see what is dangerous, what is suspicious and be really alert. Well, that part though, is a little bit of a blind spot. That tension and the fact that they are always alert is sometimes unconscious. But the pattern of searching for risks is a little easier to spot. And I think that sixes can be also in touch with how anxious they are, especially because they have probably been given feedback constantly about being anxious and not very calm. There is some nervousness inside with everything, like being concerned most of the time,

 

Beatrice

Right, so being observant of the role of fear and anxiety in your life, and how that drives the things you do, how you may not always be aware of it, but it still drives the things you do. What else?

 

Uranio

I think the worst-case scenarios tendency, which is totally connected to what we said. But to notice how it’s different than other people. And you know, instead of thinking that other people should do the same. Start thinking “why do I do it?” But all the sixes already question themselves and questioning itself is another pattern to pay attention to.

 

Beatrice

Yes, questioning and doubting. Self-doubt, doubting others, noticing how hard it is to trust people and what you need to trust and how much it takes for you to trust.

 

Uranio

So, a growth path has to do with relaxing.

 

Beatrice

Before the growth path. Did we mention any blind spots for sixes?

 

Uranio

I think that there is a blind spot of coming across as being pessimistic. Sixes don’t really understand at times why all others think they are pessimistic, and others perceive them as being pessimistic.

 

Beatrice

But they see themselves as being realistic. If you’re a six, you think, “well, I’m just doing what’s necessary”. Whereas other people can see sixes focusing excessively on what’s not working or the problems. As David Daniels used to say, our teacher used to say, sixes because they’re good problem solvers become problem seekers, or proof junkies looking for certainty. And things like that. I also think another blind spot is based on the subtypes. I think the self-preservation six is more fearful, has a blind spot around their own power and self-confidence. Sometimes their own anger and assertiveness. Whereas the one-to-one six, the sexual six, can have more a blind spot around fear, they can tend to really not be in touch with fear and move into dangerous situations as a way to conquer the situation without being in touch with fear. And for the social six, they tend to project their authority out on the outside and look for rules and reference points and not own their own authority in a full way.

 

Uranio

Right. Now, the authority issue is very central for a six to observe also. Because sixes have trouble with authority figures, but in different ways, also according to subtype. So, if you’re a six, try to observe how you either mystify authority, or you question all the time authority and go against that person in the authority role, and how you are reluctant to becoming the authority yourself.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. And owning your strength and being courageous, feeling the fear and moving ahead anyway. And noticing the contrarian tendency and observing what’s that’s about.

 

Uranio

That’s a good one.

 

Beatrice

All of these things can be good growth.

 

Uranio

How you say the opposite of what you’re thinking first. You know, you first say something different. And you question yourself and your question what has been said to you, or whatever. So, the contrary thinking pattern. Now in terms of growth path, sixes need to relax. As I mentioned before, whatever makes you relax if you’re a six, but the relaxation also needs to be very body based. Because, you know, it’s important to count down for a six and go against anxiety and fear by calming down. Now, the heart needs to come down also. So, whatever makes your heart feel at ease. Now, another thing about the growth path for sixes is to remember whatever good things are happening with you in your life. There is some sort of amnesia for successes. And it’s important to remember. I usually suggest an exercise for sixes that after a day, take note of everything that went well for you. And you’ll be surprised many times because there is this whole focus on what hasn’t gone well. And you will see that maybe you have a blind spot for things that go well. Also going into action before thinking, before planning. Pushing yourself to action by having shorter timelines is a very good idea, although difficult, but this is the growth path for sixes.

 

Jingle

Type seven.

 

Uranio

And what about sevens Bea? What do you think are the patterns, the main ones to be observed?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think a big pattern for sevens, and one they tend to be unconscious of, is how focusing on the positive, focusing on pleasure on what feels good, is actually an avoidance of pain, an avoidance of discomfort, anxiety, boredom, different uncomfortable feelings, that sevens would rather not feel. They can tend to think something along the lines of why would you feel bad if you could feel good, like it’s a choice. You can just focus on what’s good. But oftentimes, they don’t really see how moving toward something positive is actually running away from something painful. And sevens tend to have an underlying belief that if they allow themselves to feel pain, or bad feelings, that they’ll be stuck in them forever, they’ll be trapped. And they tend to go for freedom and options and things like that, to really reinforce their sense that they can focus on whatever they want to, or have whatever experience they want to have, and not be limited by the outside world.

 

Uranio

Yeah, this were good points that you made. I think that it’s very good for sevens when they observe the need for multiple alternatives in everything, and how they jump from one to another as a way to make sure that they won’t be bored, or that they won’t be caught in a situation of, you know, any unpleasant situation of not liking what’s going on. And then how, as a consequence, they don’t actually fully commit to this one thing that is happening right now. And they detach from the present moment. So I think, connected to this, it’s useful to see how sevens try to build all that they will live in life in a big planning scheme, that they do in their heads, like, I will try to guarantee that I’ll do only the things that I like, and I want, and then they detach from what life is actually bringing them to live.

 

Beatrice

Yes, they can focus a lot on the future, as a way of not being present. So, observing the tendency to distract themselves to focus on whatever feels good, or, as you say, with planning. And when they do that, they avoid the present moment, which is the only moment in which you can really experience anything. And so, I think not being present enough to anything that spontaneously happens in the moment, and it might not be a comfortable experience, or it might be difficult feeling, but to allow that feeling. And I think the growth path is really all about that, is getting over the blind spot of not wanting to focus on anything that they don’t want to feel, or experience any limitation and allow themselves to really be open to feeling whatever they feel, and feeling that feeling through till the end. And learning that it doesn’t mean that they will be feeling that feeling forever.

 

Uranio

Right. And the role of not rationalizing and not justifying whatever is happening is also huge.

 

Beatrice

Oh, I think rationalization is really big for sevens. I think if they can observe their tendency to find good reasons for doing whatever they want to do. And being free in every moment, that is a big.

 

Uranio

Instead of doing that, just being. Be there at the moment and allowing things to happen as they are happening. And see that they will not be as bad as you thought.

 

Beatrice

Yes, it’s a big thing when sevens can see themselves doing all that.

 

Uranio

Yeah. And that has to do with the growth path. Anything else about the growth path for sevens?

 

Beatrice

I think noticing their mental patterns, maybe the way they can tend to skip from one thing, they sort of skim along the surface and not go deeply into things, a little bit like we talked about.

 

Uranio

It’s a big capacity to connect dots, just summarize to interconnect different things, which is brilliant for life, right?

 

Beatrice

But it’s monkey mind. And it can be looking at the next bright shiny object and not allowing yourself to direct your own thinking processes and go deeper into whatever you’re focusing on.

 

Uranio

So, Bea, we’ve talked about the nine types. How would you wrap this all up, talking about the next steps in general for all of us?

 

Beatrice

Well, one of the great things about the enneagram is, the more you study it, the more you use it, the more it points you in a growth path with many, many things you can do. So, we’ve just talked about the beginning stages of self-observation, noticing emotional patterns, noticing blind spots, and what you can do to integrate blind spots and start on a growth path. But there are things like committing to a specific set of practices. The great thing about the enneagram is it points you in the direction of specific growth practices, like exercise, or certain forms of meditation, or certain ways of getting in touch with your body or your emotions or your beliefs, that can be really important. I also think that there are more advanced things like we often talk about psychological work, like really noticing how your type patterns are based in your childhood experience, and looking at relationships with parents and looking at other specific shadows, feelings that you may not want to recognize, experiences that you may not have and parts of yourself that you disowned. We’ve touched a little bit on these, but I think there’s a lot more work to be done in all of these. And of course, we also often talk about how work on oneself is very usefully done in groups or with the support of others. So, doing work in communities, being in groups supporting other people. And sometimes this means regrouping, like being around other people who are also on a growth path. And noticing if you’re close to someone who, when you start growing, they unconsciously push you back to the way you were before. I think this can happen a lot. And all of these are things to think about. And I’m sure we’ll talk more about them in future podcasts.

 

Uranio

Right, what I would add on top of all those good things you told us about is, inviting suffering in. Because without suffering, we don’t grow. And there is a phrase that goes “invite suffering in so that it can go away”. Because suffering has been in there, it’s just unconscious. And I like also, when you say Bea that, the thing we fear the most has already happened.

 

Beatrice

Yes, definitely encountering our pain and working through it. So that we don’t spend our energy avoiding pain. Sometimes it’s just the pain associated with our type patterns. Sometimes it’s early trauma. And it’s important to notice when you might be focusing on things that are actually distractions from feeling your pain. So, encountering your pain is just part of the hero’s journey, and it’s part of the psychological process.

 

Uranio

Right. And now it’s time for our top five.

 

Jingle

Top five.

 

Uranio

So what is our top five today, Bea?

 

Beatrice

Today, our top five is what are the top five least angry types. So, the types that have the outlook that involves the least attention to anger.

 

Uranio

It’s not that they are the least angry, It’s like they show up in their personality patterns as looking like being the least angry.

 

Beatrice

So not showing much anger, that’s what we’re talking about.

 

Uranio

As the strategy of coping mechanism and the personality structure.

 

Beatrice

Okay, so what’s your number five least angry looking type?

 

Uranio

My number five is you Bea. self-preservation two.

 

Beatrice

You are always ranking me lower than I rank myself.

 

Uranio

I think that self pres. twos are usually not much in touch with anger, as you mentioned before, and it’s very hard for them not to be nice and not to be sort of, you know, more in touch with sadness, perhaps they are the twos, among all three twos, the ones who are more in touch with sadness, and that sometimes prevent them from being a little more angry. And because sometimes the strategies to be a little more childish or just juvenile, they don’t allow themselves to be as angry. Do you agree?

 

Beatrice

I do.

 

Uranio

Are you angry with what I just said?

 

Beatrice

If I was would I tell you?

 

Uranio

No, yeah. Good question. What is your number five?

 

Beatrice

My number five is self-preservation six. I think self-preservation sixes really don’t connect with their anger because they’re afraid of other people’s anger. And so, they tend to not be very conscious of anger, they tend to be warm and friendly, they experience a kind of separation anxiety as part of their underlying fear. And so, they want allies and protectors and if you’re going to attract those people, it’s best not to be angry. Okay, so number four for you.

 

Uranio

Social seven. I think that usually social sevens also tend to be seen as nice, as people who are good. And at least in most societies, you know, being an angry person is not well, in general. Also, you know, as sevens, they reframe stuff that are not as pleasant into being better, or more colorful. And sometimes this means being out of touch with what is making them feel bad. Although, you know, at times, after some time spent being away from anger, social sevens can explode. But it’s not at all the pattern, usually they come across as being very nice.

 

Beatrice

So, for me, my number four, I actually have a tie because I couldn’t decide. Self-preservation five and self-preservation one. I’m a little torn about self-preservation one, because underneath, I think they’re very angry. But if you ask a self-preservation one, especially someone who’s new to the enneagram, they often say they’re not very angry. And so, I think there’s a big prohibition on anger for self-preservation ones. They tend to be warm and friendly, and not so aware of anger. For self-preservation five, I think this is a type that is also fearful of aggression, and tends to not be very much in touch with their anger and doesn’t really want to get into conflicts with people. So, tends to avoid consciousness.

 

Uranio

Interesting, I’ll think about it. Now, for me, my number three is sexual nine. I think that sexual nines are really willing to merge with others and go along, and especially with whoever they are with right now, and they don’t question that person. You know, and they have this flavor of being gentle and soft. So, it’s hard to see a sexual nine looking angry, in my view, harder than seeing the other two subtypes of nines.

 

Beatrice

So, for me, my number three is social seven, for all the reasons you said, I find they tend to be very upbeat, very sunny, wanting to make a positive impression and not burden other people. They have very idealistic worldview. So, I think they tend not to have much anger in their outlook, although like you said, every once in a while, it can definitely come up. So, number two, for you?

 

Uranio

Self-pres. one, for the reasons you mentioned before. But I think it’s even less common to see them being angry. Because there is anxiety about being angry, and there is an immediate focus on being angry at oneself and not others. And they can be, you know, pleasant people to be with in many different ways. But not always, people know how they are been harsh on themselves. They’re very anxious, but at the same time, you know, they are seen as being understanding. Or if you don’t pay close attention to them.

 

Beatrice

Sometimes their anger leaks out, but they do tend to put a big lid on it.

 

Uranio

I would rank them a little lower now that I’m talking, but that was my number two.

 

Beatrice

My number two was self-preservation two, myself, my own type. For many years, I would say, I wasn’t angry or I never got angry. And I think I also, like some other types I’ve mentioned so far, had a lot of fear of other people being angry at me. And I think that can be a big motivator to unconsciously detach from your own anger. So, I’ve gotten in touch with my anger more recently, but for a long time, I would say I was happy but nor angry.

 

Uranio

What’s your number one Bea?

 

Beatrice

So, my number one is nine and I think I’m going to also go for sexual nine. I kind of went back and forth between social nine, sexual nine. Then I thought, well self-preservation nines can also be not very angry, although it leaks out a little bit more when they can seem more stubborn or irritated. But I do think a lot of sexual nines, before they work on themselves especially, can be really sweet and shy and not very assertive and certainly not very angry. So that was my number one. What about you?

 

Uranio

I said self-preservation sixes because I see that they tend to play really nice with people and, you know, sometimes we joke that they might look like teddy bears. And, you know, not going against at all. But listening to you. I think that I liked your order more. I’ll review mine.

 

Beatrice

It’s funny, I was thinking the same thing. It convinced me that maybe I should have reordered mine in retrospect.

 

Uranio

It’s all about staying open right, and learning. And we definitely hope that you, who’s listening to us right now, are learning and that you are enjoying our podcasts.

 

Beatrice

This has been the Enneagram 2.0 podcast. I’m Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And I’m Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

Join us again next time as we talk about all things enneagram.

 

Uranio

Bye.

 

Woman

Please click on like to help spread the word about our podcast.

 

Man

Thanks for listening.

 

Jingle

Enneagram 2.0, find your personality, Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. What’s your type, what’s your subtype, so much you can learn.  You can be amazing go ahead and transform. It’s for yourself and others grow and follow the flow. And also, for the planet, let your mind blow. It’s from Bea and Uranio, time for you to know and be your best self with enneagram 2.0. Psychology, self-mastery, work and relationships, spirituality. Come and join the podcast, oh yeah, will be fun. Explore the challenges that from now you’ll overcome. Enneagram 2.0. Tune in, it’s your personality. Enneagram 2.0 Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, Hey! Enneagram 2.0 tune in now.

 

Enneagram 2.0 podcast

00. Meet Your Hosts

 

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST

READ THE TRANSCRIPTION

Beatrice

Hello. Welcome to the enneagram 2.0 podcast. I’m Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And I am Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

And we’re very happy you joined us for our first episode of Enneagram 2.0.

 

Uranio

Yes, our inaugural podcast. I’m very excited Bea. What about you?

 

Beatrice

Yes. And I’m really glad that we’re launching this new venture to bring more enneagram out into the world.

 

Uranio

Yeah, and we definitely hope that you will benefit and enjoy your Enneagram 2.0 experience.

 

Jingle

What is the topic today?

 

Beatrice

Yes, our intention is to talk in this podcast a little bit about ourselves, to introduce ourselves to you if you don’t know us very well yet., our work with the enneagram and the content we’re going to be presenting in the coming weeks.

 

Uranio

This is why we’re calling it our number zero. And let’s get started.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I know when I’m first meeting someone in the enneagram world, I always like to hear how they first came to the enneagram, how they discovered it and what their experience was. So maybe we could both share our origin stories.

 

Uranio

Okay.

 

Beatrice

I know that both of us have been studying the enneagram for a pretty long time. I learned the enneagram in 1990. And I think you learned it pretty shortly after that, right?

 

Uranio

1996 actually.

 

Beatrice

Right, right. So how did you first encounter the enneagram?

 

Uranio

Well, I had a student of mine, because I was already working as an organizational consultant by then. A student of mine in Brazil, because I am Brazilian and I come from São Paulo. But I was teaching actually in Rio de Janeiro at that time. And a student of mine just commented that she worked with the enneagram, because I was talking about styles and personalities using some other system, which is not very well known. So, she said that and I’ve got interested in the things that she said and I went to read, you know, a few books. The first book I read was Helen Palmer’s which was in Portuguese, my original language. So, excuse my English by the way, I think we’re going to do a few funny things like, Bea correcting my English, while we talk here on the podcast, right Bea?

Okay, so I got to know it through that student, and then through a book, and then through a very good teacher in Brazil, Racily. And then eventually, you know, I started studying quite a lot of it and reading, which has to do with my enneagram type and subtype, while I was just starting teaching it in a few places, especially in business, because I come from the business and management background.

 

Beatrice

And did you know right away that you were a five?

 

Uranio

In my case? Yes.

 

Beatrice

It was pretty obvious.

 

Uranio

Yeah, you know, actually that student that I first talked about the enneagram told me about five and then I said: “I think this is me”. And then I read the first book, Helen’s book. I was really surprised, you know, one of the reactions people sometimes have is: does this author know inside my head? My heart and everything? So I was, you know, pretty shocked with what I read. And it was very obvious to me from the beginning that the enneagram talked about something truer than what other models talked about. I actually felt ashamed that I had been using that other model that I was teaching. What about you Bea? What’s your story?

 

Beatrice

So, I came upon the enneagram, kind of by accident. A good friend of mine, from junior high in high school, his father was one of the first enneagram pioneers.

 

Uranio

Who became a very beloved teacher for you and me.

 

Beatrice

Yes, both of us were mentored by David Daniels, Dr. David Daniels, who is a psychiatrist at Stanford. And I was just at dinner one night at the Daniel’s house, and Dr. Daniels was sharing his passion about the enneagram. He described it as his life’s calling, which was a little bit unusual for a Stanford psychiatrist to be interested in something at that time, relatively unknown, something called the enneagram, this ancient symbol. But he said he thought it was by far the best growth tool that he’d ever encountered. And so that got my attention right there. And I took Helen Palmer’s book home with me, and he had suggested I might be a two. So, I read the type two chapter and like you, I was absolutely shocked at how accurately it described me. All these details about who I was. It was right there. In very clear terms, even things that I didn’t really like about myself that I probably wouldn’t have admitted were right there, in black and white.

 

Uranio

And did you admit them right away?

 

Beatrice

Well, I had to think about it a little. But while it took a little bit of work and self-encouragement to admit them to myself. But it was incredible, I immediately saw how helpful it was, because it was almost as if it helped me see blind spots and parts of myself that I really didn’t want to see, you know, in a way that was very good for me to admit.

 

Uranio

In my case, it’s not that I didn’t admit, but actually, I was more intellectualizing what I was reading. You are a two and I’m a five. So, it’s similar to your process of admitting it just slowly.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And I think it’s really important to say maybe right up front, that when you do find your enneagram type, it’s not always a completely positive experience, right?

 

Uranio

If it’s taught the right way.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. If you’re being really honest, if you’re really finding your type, it shouldn’t be 100% good news, right?! And a friend of mine calls it the “argh” factor. It’s kind of hard and vulnerable to read certain things about yourself that maybe are things that are in your shadow, you know, the part of you that you don’t fully want to recognize in yourself, because it doesn’t make you feel so good.

 

Uranio

Yes. And I’m so happy that the newer generations nowadays are more open to this kind of approach of looking inside and going a little deeper.

 

I do think that there’s a real hunger these days for people to gain more self-knowledge. And I think that’s part of why the enneagram is really exploding in popularity right now, definitely in the US. But I think in some ways, or all around the world, several other places. Like we are right now recording this very first podcast in Egypt, Cairo. One of the cities we teach in, and we teach all over the world. So, it’s so exciting to see and witness how this is happening.

 

Beatice

Yes, and I think Egypt is a good example of a place in which, just in the last few years, there’s been a huge increase in enneagram work and different teachers coming here to share ideas. And in fact, you know, one of the things is, we’ve met so many different people here. And so, it’s a great example of how in different places all over the world the enneagram is really catching on. Which is another reason why I’m so glad we’re doing this podcast, because I think we can speak more about our intentions. But I know that for us it’s really about sharing our work, sharing our views on the enneagram, helping people take whatever enneagram studies they may be doing to a deeper level.

 

Uranio

Yeah, I think nobody wants anymore, more of the same, right. And people study and get information of all kinds right now, through the internet and different channels. So, this is one of our objectives. I guess, here on Enneagram 2.0. podcast. it’s not to do more of the same, it’s to bring in some very interesting discussion, sometimes controversial topics, and to make people think about themselves, not only in positive ways. But we also want to have fun, right?

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And I think for us one of the things that’s great about the fact that we work together is, I think, we’re so aligned around enneagram theory and high-quality enneagram work and making sure we’re always applying the enneagram in ethical ways, in ways that really work. But that we are also very complimentary in our skill sets and our personalities and our experience. And so, I think that we share really a sense of mission around helping really high-quality enneagram teachings to be communicated to more people. Because I think the enneagram can actually be a little bit dangerous, right? When people use it in ways, and sometimes completely unintentionally, they get excited about the enneagram. And they may not recognize, they just may not know when they’re taking a shallow approach or, you know…

 

Uranio

Representing some old concepts that came from, you know, books that are not updated, or, you know, not understanding really what each of the nine types are about.

 

Beatrice

Right. Yes, and there’s so many dimensions to the system. There are centres of intelligence, there are the types of course, there are subtypes and instincts and what the diagram says about growth itself, like the arrow lines and the wings.

 

Uranio

And it’s all about transformation, not only, you know, just talking about our personalities. You know, when we study the nine personalities, we study more who we are not, and then who we can be, become. Right. And this has to do with psychological and spiritual development, which many people are really interested in right now. Given the things that happen in the planet.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And I think both of us agree that the enneagram is all about growth and transformation. That you need a good information about the enneagram as a map, but the information is not necessarily important in and of itself. it’s vital to the degree that you apply it in your life and that you use the tool for transformation and not as an excuse or something like that. Like, “oh well, I’m a two and so I do it this way.” It’s like, no, you’re a two and you need to learn about the way you are, so that you can develop much beyond that. Because as we know, we are not our personalities. We’re much more than our personalities, but we identify with our personalities.

 

Uranio

And sometimes we justify what we do with our personality. Or I can look at you and say “you’re doing this because you’re a two” like accusations.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. Right. So, what we want to be all about is helping people understand the enneagram and how to apply it. Both in terms of cutting-edge theory, I think one of the things that we talk about a lot is how, you know, there’s so much to the enneagram, there’s so much encoded in it. And we’re really evolving our understanding of it right now. I think we only really understand a very small percentage of all that the enneagram contains. And so, part of what we’re dedicated to do is the continual unfolding of new information, ways to understand what is communicated by the enneagram, in ways that are usable and accessible to support growth and development.

 

Uranio

Yes, exactly. And it’s an ongoing exploration. And yet, it feels like, you know, so much has already been revealed with what we have studied so far. And I want to mention Bea, that when we decided to call this The Enneagram 2.0. podcast, and also, we have a workshop or retreat called the same way. This is because we see that as the upgrade of what you and I used to do many, many years ago. Like we need to get really updated in new theories and new ways of teaching. And I don’t know you, but on one hand, I’m very happy that the enneagram is spreading around the way it is. But also, a little concerned at times with things I read on the internet, mainly, and social networks. Because at times people don’t really know what they are talking about.

 

Beatrice

Exactly, exactly. So, in part, we may be here to correct the record at times, right? And to challenge some ideas that we may view as shallow. And to that end, I think our intention is to always be very respectful. It’s not about people, it’s not about not respecting other people and that everyone has a right to their opinion. But in light of some of the opinions that could be put out there, and sometimes in a very authoritative tone, we’re here to present our views to challenge this. And again, always with intention to promote the best possible use of the enneagram. Never to say that we’re the owners of the truth, never to criticize anyone else. That’s never going to be our intention. But we do want to say when we think there’s one approach that works better than another approach.

 

Uranio

Yeah, that’s our opinion and our experience. We’re not saying, as you said, that we are owners of the truth. And at the same time, I think we have a duty to the enneagram. And when I say “we” it’s all teachers, to bring in, you know, what we really think about and contrast, you know, compare. Because we are here for the sake of something bigger than us. You know, the enneagram at times just feels like a Heritage of Humanity and an unfolding thing and not exactly an invention, but rather a discovery of a bigger truth.

 

Beatrice

Right. And you said the responsibility of enneagram teachers, which I think is large. And I think a big part of that responsibility is also walking the talk. So, in other words, if you’re someone who teaches the enneagram or someone who takes an active role in promoting the enneagram, it’s very important that you be using it on yourself. Right? And I know that you and I are dedicated to that. And we will be using ourselves as examples and telling about our own work.

 

Uranio

And our relationship as friends.

 

Beatrice

Which is also a source of learning. But I also want to mention, I think, the responsibility of enneagram enthusiasts. Because I think we also want to suggest that enneagram enthusiasts have a responsibility to be looking at the sources of the enneagram information they’re getting and talking about. And always, if they’re dedicated to the enneagram, to really be understanding what the information is they’re getting, where it comes from. So that they can also play a role in encouraging the best possible uses.

 

Uranio

And honouring the system that is not only deep and useful, but also sacred. Now, on the other hand, you and I are not at all against spreading the word and making it more popular, right, reaching out to all audiences.

 

Beatrice

Right. And that’s happening in such exciting ways today. I mean, a lot of people who follow people on Instagram, people are talking about it in very innovative ways, like, songs that are being written about the enneagram. To me, I think it’s wonderful to see that. But I wonder, especially for people who are new to the enneagram, listening to this podcast, I wonder if it’d be good to talk a little bit about what we see as the purpose of the enneagram. Or how the enneagram can really help people. Like, why be interested in the enneagram?

 

Uranio

What do you think?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think that the enneagram, a personality, has ancient roots. That’s my opinion, not everyone shares it. But I think it comes from, we don’t really know where it comes from, but it’s probably thousands of years old. I believe it came through Egypt, which is one of the reasons it’s exciting to be here, and to be coming here a couple of times a year, every year.

 

Uranio

Teaching with our friend Abdul-Rahman.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And it’s very old. It’s very ancient. It has deep roots in, I think, some of the world’s most treasured and most wise philosophic traditions, wisdom traditions. But I think it’s probably the best tool available for really helping people wake up. And a lot of the core teaching behind the enneagram, that comes from Gurdjieff, who was an Armenian mystic that lived at the beginning of the 20th century, end of the 19th century, and who taught us a lot of what we know about the meaning of the enneagram symbol itself, and there’s a program of self-work connected to it, and which we’ll be referencing as we go forward, and hopefully, clarifying for people. I think one of the things that it’s always important to remember is that, in a way, we are asleep. It’s just part of the human condition, that we think we’re awake and conscious as we go through our lives. But actually, we live in a kind of waking sleep, we have kind of mechanical habits, we’re machines, as Gurdjieff said. But we’re special machines, because we’re machines that can wake up and realize that we’re machines, which is part of the human purpose, I believe, is awakening to our higher capacities. And I think the enneagram helps us see that in ways that almost no other tool I can think of really does in quite the way it does.

 

Uranio

Yeah. Gurdjieff would call the nine personalities the “men machine states of the heart and the mind”. Ways that we have limited ourselves to a much bigger spectrum of life and possibilities. He would talk about the possible evolution for men, but the very first one is to become human. And then after becoming human, we need to become spiritual. Right? Now, I do think Bea that it’s totally possible to have a sound and deep inner development without the enneagram. I think that many people do it, when people do very good level psychotherapy and also spiritual work. Now, why the enneagram is useful? I think, as Helen Palmer used to say or says still, it names the main obstacles for us to get there. And I see that it serves as a tremendously useful shortcut in our quest. You know, this sacred work of inner work is the most difficult one of all, and it takes a lifetime. And sometimes it feels like a lifetime is not enough. If we don’t get shortcuts we won’t get too far.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I’m a psychotherapist by training. I work with the enneagram for a long time as a psychotherapist and, if you think about someone who starts a journey of trying to understand themselves at a deeper level, it’s like, “where do you start?” You know, even if you’re smart enough to go to therapy to start, you know, being supported in your process of self-development, it can take a while to find, “okay, how do I go from what I’m experiencing in my daily life to the really important key things that I need to be paying attention to, that I need to understand about myself to really grow?”. And I think the enneagram just shines a light on habitual patterns that tend to be invisible, because they started early on so familiar and comfortable and so habitual that it’s like the air we breathe, we just don’t see it. And we just don’t realize that other people have other worldviews completely different than ours, which is why we can sometimes think, “why is that person seeing this thing so differently than I am?”. And I think the enneagram provides an incredible guide to helping you understand: here are the patterns that you’ve gone to sleep to, which function a bit like a kind of programming. It’s like you’re programmed in certain ways, and it’s your programming, so you don’t see the programming and you don’t recognize that you operate according to kind of a default mode. And what you really need is to understand more that that’s what’s happening. And that that default mode is a kind of self-limiting system. And that you’re limited in ways you don’t see. But once you see that, and the enneagram helps you see that, you can grow much beyond that.

 

Uranio

Mm, yes. So, I definitely agree with all we’ve just said, I think it’s something so beautiful to see how people start their journeys inside when they get to know the enneagram. I think it’s a very good start because of its very good precision, accuracy, and also depth. Now, I also see how much it helps people who have already been on a path. And when they get to the anagram, they focus more. So, the enneagram is a way to know what comes next in our development, in general, but also per type. We have nine types on the enneagram. Enneagram actually comes, the word comes from the Greek “ennea” is nine and “gram” is drawing or symbol. So, the symbol of nine. And you mentioned Gurdjieff. One of the things I’m really excited about is our studies to try to combine the more ancient enneagram, the process enneagram, as we talked about, with the personality typology that most people know about nowadays. And these are two very important dimensions of the enneagram that have been put apart. It actually disturbs me that people who know the nine types don’t go study Gurdjieff and all the brilliant work he did, or simply don’t know enough. While many Gurdjieffian’s, so to say, are against the topology thinking it could never work. And it’s like, “I don’t know it and I don’t like it much”, you know?

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And so I think that’s one of the things that we’re really going to focus on doing a lot is: talking not only about the nine types and the subtypes and the different aspects of the personality enneagram, but also talk about the enneagram symbol itself. Gurdjieff said it was a symbol of perpetual motion. He said, “if you know how to read the enneagram – and of course, almost no one does today – it makes books and libraries entirely unnecessary”.

 

Uranio

Yeah, exactly. And he said “it’s the symbol of all and everything”.

 

Beatrice

Right. So, we’ll be exploring that as well. We’ll be exploring all the different dimensions of the enneagram that help people understand the symbol and what makes it such an effective and powerful system. And also, the specifics of the enneagram types and subtypes and why people do what they do.

 

Uranio

Yeah. And at the same time, we will be very practical and talk about very interesting things. Mainly relationships and, you know, how those nine types play out in the world for each of us.

 

Beatrice

Let’s do a short break.

 

Woman:

If you like this podcast visit www.cpenneagram.com for much more great enneagram content. The enneagram 2.0 podcast goes live every other Thursday on all main platforms. Stay tuned to learn more about yourself and others. Have you already subscribed to for Bea and Uranio’s YouTube channel? Go to YouTube and search for Chestnut Paes, and click on like and subscribe.

 

Jingle

This is the enneagram 2.0 podcast.

 

Beatrice

I wonder if it would be good to share a little bit more about our backgrounds, and especially how that’s led us to the work that we do today with the enneagram through our enneagram school, the Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, and our online platform Chestnut Paes online, just so people know a little bit about who we are. Just so the person listening can understand where we’re coming from, and what experience we’re drawing from that we’ll be speaking about in this podcast.

 

Uranio

Right. So, you said you’re a psychotherapist, and I come from Business and Management backgrounds. And now I work as an organizational consultant for 20 plus, 25 years of my life. But the anagram pretty soon became really central in all I did. I started studying it more than anything else. And then I went to the US, started studying with the, you know, the authors I used to read. And eventually I was working only with that as an organizational consultant. Then I started teaching, you know, Palmer & Daniels trainings and all other trainings of myself, that I started developing, you know, things that started unfolding, sometimes intuitively, and connecting the dots, you know, different things that I was getting in touch with. Because together with the Enneagram, I started my inner quest in different wisdom schools, I stayed for quite a while in a school doing different kinds of meditations, then I was a student at the Gurdjiffian school, then I spent a few years also doing Sufi studies. So, it’s always been something connected to deep work for me. Now, I just think that, that led me to be in partnership with you because we have a very similar vision that this is all about transformation. And on Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy we are all about that. So, I think that in different ways, you and I, we don’t really want to do workshops, or retreats, we want to do processes of development, to facilitate our students development.

 

Beatrice

Well, we do want to do workshops and retreats.

 

Uranio

But I mean is not only something, you know, lost in time, in one period, it’s just processes of development. And this is why we have created our new school, in which we teach together, bringing together different, you know, contributions that you and I have. And we have what we call the Personal Mastery Program and the Professional Certification Program with different retreats and workshops together, but also with colleagues of ours who do coaching and mentoring individually, and different kinds of studies.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I think, to say it in phrase, I think we’re very dedicated to helping people take their enneagram work to a deeper level, personally, and also helping professionals who teach the enneagram, who use the enneagram in whatever professional practice they have, often therapists or coaches, you know, leaders, people who work in HR organizations, to take their enneagram work to a deeper level.

 

Uranio

It’s a lot about the next step, the next level.

 

Beatrice

Right. And I started off actually in academics. And then, because of the enneagram, I decided to go back to school and study psychology and become a psychotherapist. So, I knew the enneagram before I learned psychology and I saw everything I learned through the lens of the enneagram. And I seem to see the enneagram as almost a grand theory of psychological and spiritual development. And after becoming a psychotherapist, I gradually kind of migrated toward doing more coaching and business consulting. So, you and I share that part of our background, although you were an organization development consultant for many more years than I was. But then I gradually started doing more workshops, especially after I wrote my first book – The complete enneagram. And then the second book, the nine types of leadership. And so, now I’m just really thrilled to be doing more and more of this deeper work with people, both just in their personal lives, helping them understand themselves at a deeper level, helping them further their growth journeys. But also helping therapists, coaches and other kinds of professionals learn to use the enneagram with more skill and confidence. And so, you know, that’s what we’re deeply dedicated to. And I think another thing that we are also doing, at the same time, which supports all that, is developing more enneagram content, really developing the theory, and I think sometimes, because the enneagram hasn’t really been an academic discipline, sometimes what’s happened in my experience, and you tell me what you think, is that, you know, there’s a good teacher out there, people develop a piece of theory, and they just kind of stick with it. You know, they’ve got a good course, and you know, they’re having good experiences with people coming to their classes. And they just sort of stay there. Because again, it’s not really an academic discipline, it’s not always about moving things forward. It’s more about like, “Okay, I’m doing something that’s working, let’s stick with this”. Whereas I think we come with a real developmental mindset when it comes to the work itself, that the use of the enneagram to further inner work, which is what we’re all about. And so, I think that part of what we’ll be doing is really focusing a lot on how to apply the enneagram in new ways. If those new ways work better, how to understand the enneagram symbol itself, the types, the subtypes, the instincts, how everything fits together. And really challenging maybe old ideas that we might think are outmoded, or just that there’s better ways and better approaches. Because after all, the enneagram map is only as good as it is when it’s applied. It’s not just about description or diagnosis. It’s about using it in practical ways to transcend your personality, to manifest your higher potentials, to really develop higher consciousness.

 

Uranio

Yeah, that’s what it is about. And sometimes I think you, who’s listening to us now, will see us discussing aspects in theory, not necessarily we will be in total agreement, although we agree pretty much in, you know, the vast majority of things at this point. But Bea and I try to stay being explorers of the system. And I think Bea that, conferences that exists everywhere help, enneagram conferences, when people and teachers share knowledge. But I’m particularly excited with the possibility of the internet becoming a channel for good exchanges and not only shallow things that we sometimes see. Now I think it’s useful also to say when it comes to our biography that both you and I were board members at the International Enneagram Association, actually for six years together, and we got to know each other.

 

Beatrice

That’s how we met.

 

Uranio

Actually, you became president for two years and I was also global president for other two years. And we had an opportunity to see how the enneagram could grow all around. Now, as I said Bea, I am from Brazil, from São Paulo, although right now I live in London with my wife and kids, since 2016, and you are from San Francisco. Now, you were born in Palo Alto though

 

Beatrice

I was born in Palo Alto; I live in California. I’ve lived in California most of my life. And, so yeah, I’m from the United States.

 

Uranio

So, it seems that you actually attended the enneagram conferences from the very first one.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, the first real enneagram conference happened in 1994. And I was there for that. So, I’ve been around the community for a long time. And I think  really one of the things that we feel really strongly about is creating a sense of community. And I think that’s one of the things we’re trying to do with this podcast. And one of the things we try to do in our work, certainly, with our enneagram school. So yeah, I think that, you know, we’ve deployed a real friendship through our dedication to the enneagram, and through our common vision of using it to promote greater awareness in the world.

 

Uranio

Yeah and it feels great that we are not just business partners and co-teachers but we are also friends. First friends.

 

Beatrice

And I think that we share a very key value in using the enneagram for own personal growth. And so, we will be using examples from our own life, certainly. Partly sometimes because they’re just probably the most vivid examples, because we’re living them, but also from our friendship and our business partnership. And so, I think that that will be an ingredient going forward in the podcast.

 

Uranio

And this doesn’t mean that we, you and I, are evolved or totally evolved now. Maybe we’ll help our audience here at this podcast by sharing a little bit of our flaws.

 

Beatrice

Yes, or a lot! And again, I think the enneagram, more than anything else, is helpful in looking at the shadow. Which can’t always be easy but…

 

Uranio

Do you have shadow Bea?

 

Beatrice

Oh me? Yes, of course.

 

Uranio

Do you think I have shadows?

 

Beatrice

I think we all have shadows.

 

Uranio

I do, a lot.

 

Beatrice

But I think it helps if we’re looking at them together with each other, because then we know we’re not alone.

 

Uranio

We cannot do this work alone, as Gurdjieff said. And, you know, having other people giving us feedback, and even self-development groups, is very useful, sometimes essential.

 

Beatrice

So why don’t we say a little bit about our vision for the podcast and maybe preview some upcoming topics?

 

Uranio

What is your vision for our podcast, Bea Chestnut?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think it’s a way of taking the work that we’re doing in workshops, in retreats, and then, you know, the online content that we’re developing, and communicating it in a different way, to hopefully a wider audience. And having some interesting discussions about enneagram theory, enneagram applications, about how to understand this remarkable system. We’ll also have some interviews with some thought leaders in the enneagram world, and we’ll talk about, I think, some really interesting topics. But before we get to the topics, what’s your vision? What would you add to what I’m saying?

 

Uranio

I’d say it’s our contribution to engage more interesting people on the whole discussion about self-development using the enneagram. And then, as you mentioned a little before, we have Chestnut Paes online, CP online, that came from another project, “Mundo Eneagrama”, and that is an online platform with lots of content that people might want to check… in…

 

Beatrice

Chech out!

 

Uranio

Check out! Thanks for correcting my English.

 

Beatrice

You know, I’m always hesitant to correct your English because it seems a little bit like I’m being critical and I’m not at all, because you speak three language and I only speak one language, so…

 

Uranio

But yet you have fun at times listening to me.

 

Beatrice

Well I do. I do find it a little bit entertaining the way you phrase things. But I find it kind of cute and so that’s another reason it’s hard to correct you, because…

 

Uranio

But I really appreciate if you do because I like learning. As a social five. But back to CP online We have a lot of content in there, both by you and by me. So that is our way to build community and to bring people together to deep learning. But it all starts with this podcast, and also our YouTube channel with several introductory materials. Although this podcast is both for beginners and for more advanced students.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, our goal is to have conversations with each other, with other people that are engaging and enlivening, and that really deepen people’s interest in the enneagram and help them take what they’re doing to a deeper level. So, some of the upcoming topics that we might cover, I think we’re going to start off with some of the basics of enneagram theory, in case people are learning the enneagram through this podcast for the first time, or they’re new to the enneagram. But again, we’ll always be trying to do it in a way where we’re adding something new, or we’re adding more depth. We’ll start off talking about the three centres of intelligence. The fact that we’re three brained beings. And we’ll talk about the nine types, and then we’ll talk about the instinct level of personality, and we’ll talk about the subtypes. We’ll talk about relationships, like how the enneagram can really help improve your relationship and we all want that to happen! We all want better relationships. And we’ll talk about the enneagram and the Myers Briggs, which I know a lot of people are interested. What other kinds of things will we share with people?

 

Uranio

I think applications, you know, in life, at work and also the dimension of essence, our higher selves, and who we really are when we, you know, just lower down the energy of personality itself.

 

Beatrice

Yes, that’s one of the things you’ve taught me is that when we really develop, and we really grow, we’re actually the opposite of who we are in personality. Which is why I think some of the stereotypes that get developed around the enneagram types can be a bit dangerous, because it’s almost like it locks people in to a lower level of consciousness. And it can discourage real growth, like when people start to change they actually become very different. Of course, change can be difficult but it’s definitely very possible, especially when you’re using the enneagram map in the way it can be used.

 

Uranio

And this is why you and I have our model of levels of awareness as something very central.

 

Beatrice

And that’s very new and we’ll be sharing at some point soon, because I think people will be very excited about that, it’s based on the enneagram itself. We’re going to end each podcast with a “top five” list and this was your idea, your brainchild, so why don’t you describe what the top five is and then we’ll do our top five for today.

 

Uranio

Yeh. So, top five.

 

Jingle

Top five!

 

Uranio

So, top five for us, Bea, is a way to share ideas of top five anything enneagram. So, we might want to say the happiest types or subtypes, or the ones who have more melancholy or anger. Yeah, we’ll have a top five for each podcast. And then, the idea came because I like to tease you, as you know, your life order, and I’m not as much like that.

 

Beatrice

He loves to spring things on me right in the moment when I’m least expecting it.

 

Uranio

And this is because of our instincts and subtypes, not our types, as we’ll share some other time. Now this is why I suggested that we don’t talk about what we think the top five is. We agree beforehand on the theme, a top five theme, and then you think about it, I think about it, and then we contrast it live. So, right now I don’t know what your answers are about the top five, but what is the top five today Bea?

 

Beatrice

And I don’t know what your answers are either. So, today we are going to talk about the top five things that excite us about this podcast. The top five reasons we’re excited about launching this new podcast Enneagram 2.0. Yeah. So, do you want to go first? Or should I?

 

Uranio

You can go first. So, what is five?

 

Beatrice

So, number five for me is that I love talking about the enneagram. I could talk about it really all day. Sometimes people ask me about the enneagram at parties, and then they apologize immediately saying, “Oh, you probably don’t want to talk about the enneagram. You talk about that all the time”. And then actually I could talk about the enneagram all day and not get tired of it. So, I love talking. Yeah. What about you? What’s your number five?

 

Uranio

My number five is that doing this podcast is the cool new thing for me. You know, I’m learning some technology aspects of it, and different things while I talk with you. So, it’s about learning, and learning is one of the most important things in my life. I don’t know why, why do you think?

 

Beatrice

Because you’re a social five.

 

Uranio

So, what’s number four for you?

 

Beatrice

Number four is that it’s another way to express my passion and my very deep dedication to personal growth work. It’s a way to reach more people, to wake up more people and basically to promote higher consciousness in the world, which is kind of what I see maybe as my higher mission. If each of us individually is making an effort to have higher consciousness, to become more self-aware, it makes the whole world more conscious.

 

Uranio

Love it. My number four is that through the podcast, it becomes more possible to spread the word of the anagram all around the world. Because you and I decided to be really International, and teach in all continents, as we are doing right now already. But also spreading the word of the enneagram in different facets of the system, different aspects and dimensions of that, it really excites me.

 

Beatrice

Yes, that’s a good one, Number three. So, I’m excited to share some of what we do and what we’re learning from doing our live workshops and retreats. Recently, I realized a lot of what we do trying to help people use the enneagram in their personal growth, when we work with people directly, in person, is we’re really often healing traumas. We’re helping people understand how their enneagram type is a defensive structure that has really helped them cope and survive, but also has shielded down from really addressing some traumas. And if they can really face some of their core wounds and difficulties, they can experience enormous healing and liberation. They can really have less stress and anxiety in their lives. And all the different things that we’ve learned about the enneagram and the human birth process. I’m excited to bring that to a wider audience, and help people see just different things that the enneagram can do as a tool.

 

Uranio

Right. Yeah. My number three is that I’m doing this with you, Bea. It is fun and it’s much nicer to do it with you, then alone.

 

Beatrice

That’s only number three. This might get us in trouble.

 

Uranio

Okay, I guess I now know, what’s two or one for you?

 

Beatrice

And we’ll talk about that later.

 

Uranio

But it’s top three, see? For me, it’s really exciting that I’m doing this with you.

 

Beatrice

Okay, yeah.

 

Uranio

What’s your number two?

 

Beatrice

I might get mad at you when I get to number one. Okay, for me, number two is I’m excited about building a wider community. One of the things I love about the enneagram is that I meet amazing people through conferences and people that come to our workshops and trainings. And people who love the enneagram are usually people who are really interesting, and very deep and just dedicated to their own growth and development. And so, I’m always excited about the people I meet. And I’m really happy to be building a wider community of people who are studying enneagram and growing in positive ways.

 

Uranio

Well, yes. And for me, my number two is that it feels like we are doing something good for the planet today. The planet is so much in need and dedicating some time to do this, and using this amazing system that the enneagram is, makes me feel good and doing a little part that we can do.

 

Beatrice

So, my number one… Well, you know, I’m not offended that you put planet above me, that’s okay. But my number one is that I love talking to you. And I love working with you. And I love partnering with you, and this important work we do, and I think it’s gonna be fun for us to have very focused conversations on important things we want to share with people.

 

Uranio

I love it too Bea. It will be a pleasure. As it is a big pleasure to teach together with you. We have a lot of fun. And we have so many stories to tell. Not all of them we can talk about.

 

Beatrice

And some that are a little painful. But it’s all about the growth journey.

 

Uranio

And my number one, you know, it’s something I’ve been learning in the past, I would switch my number one and two. So, even more important than the planet to me is an individual inner transformation for you, who’s listening to us. But in a way that we talk enneagram of transformation and not the enneagram of labelling people, whatever personality they have. This is what excites me the most. Sharing with people how the enneagram is a developmental tool. And sometimes we say it’s not only horizontal, it’s also vertical in levels of awareness, and how this can be our life’s work. “The work” as Gurdjieff used to say, inner transformation. And always the very best thing each of us can do for the planet is our very own inner work.

 

Beatrice

Right. And, I think we’re going to bring new ideas to you listening about how exactly to do this inner work. And, hopefully, new ideas, examples, new applications, and it is about the work and it does start with you. So, when each of us are doing our work, it has a way of inspiring all the people around us. So, I like that one. And I won’t be offended by the planet and the listener.

 

Uranio

You’re doing your work.

 

Beatrice

Yes, yes. I’m working on the pride of the two not having to be number one.

 

Uranio

Yes, I think it made me think if I’m still too much in my abstractions…

 

Beatrice

Everything is material for the inner growth process. Even the top five.

 

Uranio

This is why I can’t wait for the next podcast Bea.

 

Beatrice

Yes. Okay, so that does it for this podcast. And we are really glad you joined us. We’re very excited to be starting this new endeavour. And we hope you join us for our coming episodes. So, this has been the enneagram 2.0 podcast. I’m Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

I am Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

Join us again next time as we talk about all things enneagram.

 

Uranio

Thank you for listening.

 

Woman:

Please click on like to help spread the word about our podcast.

 

Jingle:

Eneagram 2.0, find your personality, Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. What’s your type, what’s your subtype, so much you can learn.  You can be amazing go ahead and transform. It’s for yourself and others grow and follow the flow. And also, for the planet, let your mind blow. It’s from Bea and Uranio, time for you to know and be your best self with enneagram 2.0. Psychology, self-mastery, work and relationships, spirituality. Come and join the podcast, oh yeah, will be fun. Explore the challenges that from now you’ll overcome. Enneagram 2.0. Tune in, it’s your personality. Enneagram 2.0 Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, Hey! Enneagram 2.0 tune in now.

 

Transcribed by Michelle Felisberto, using https://otter.ai.

Enneagram 2.0

02. We are Three Brain Beings

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST

 

READ THE TRANSCRIPTION

Uranio

Hello, and welcome to the enneagram 2.0 Podcast. I am Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

And I am Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And today, what is our theme Bea?

 

Beatrice

Today we’re talking about the enneagram’s three centers of intelligence.

 

Uranio

Yes, we are three brained beings. Right?

 

Beatrice

Yes, most people, especially in the West, think of humans as having one center of intelligence in our brain or heads. But actually, according to the enneagram system, we have three centers of intelligence, three ways of processing information from the outside world. One brain in our head, one brain or center intelligence in our heart, and one in our body or our belly.

 

Uranio

Yes. And even if we think about the brain itself, it has three big parts to it. The reptilian brain, which is more connected to the instinct, the limbic system, which is more connected to emotions, and the neocortex, which is more connected to thoughts. Right, Bea?

 

Beatrice

Exactly. So, the three parts of the brain correlate to these three centers of intelligence in different parts of our body. In addition to this, research recently has found that we actually have neural cells in our guts and our hearts.

 

Uranio

Yes, that’s quite interesting. And memory even is not only, you know, cognitive. Our body stores memory of all kinds, and our hearts. And we use it a lot to work with traumas and different things. Now, it’s also curious Bea, we sometimes talk about it, that everything on the enneagram comes in threes.

 

Beatrice

Right.

 

Uranio

Like, you know, we always need to think of three forces operating. Three centers of intelligence, and what else?

 

Beatrice

Three types within each center. And for each type, there are three subtypes. So, there’s actually 27 types. But I always like to start with three, because three is a little bit easier to understand than nine, and 27. Even though we talked about the nine types in our last episode, we’re going to talk a little bit about the three centers of intelligence today, because sometimes I think they’re not as fully understood as they might be. And when we work with the enneagram, thinking about the centers of intelligence, and these three different ways of interacting with the world can be really interesting in and of itself.

 

Uranio

Oh, yeah. Well, before we go on with this, I just want to mention that the enneagram comes in threes, as we said, because we need to integrate all three forces that we are talking about. The deeper meaning of the study of the centers of intelligence is to allow all of us to be able to operate with all three. So, it’s not only about defining what your dominant center of intelligence is, but also helping you open up access to the other two centers and finally become a three centred person. So, this means that if you are a mental type, you may also open up, you know, all your resources in your body, being more instinctual and also resources of the heart, being more emotional. And in all other cases for body types, for heart types.

 

Beatrice

But I think we need to start a little bit more back at the beginning. I think people who are new to the enneagram may not understand what these centers are and how the types are oriented.

 

Uranio

And, as you know, you need to know that in our dynamics here, Bea sometimes translates me. In two ways, both in my funny English and also in things that I tend to go deeper away…

 

Beatrice

Or more complex, perhaps.

 

Uranio

That’s our type biases. And maybe you’re seeing it right now, or listening to an example by me, how I might become overly mental. And how Bea can become very empathetic with you, who’s listening to us, because of her heart center dominance.

 

Beatrice

They’re the centers happening in action right now.

 

Uranio

Right now, yes, we are always very good examples to show you, actually not only good things, but our own biases.

 

Beatrice

Right. So, to start off with, we all have all three of these centers functioning in us if we’re alive. We all have a head center that we think with, we all have a heart center, and we all have a body center. However, when we come to identify with a personality early on, when we, you know, adopt a personality to survive in the world, we by definition get out of balance. And so, we end up coming more from one center than the other two. So, as we said, I’m a heart type. I’m a two. And I live more from my heart center, than I do the other two centers. And there’s a lot about the enneagram of personality, about understanding how we’re out of balance, and not fully in touch with a whole or a higher and complete self that we could be, which is, of course, the growth work associated with the enneagram.

 

Uranio

I like what you’re saying Bea because, you know, it’s archetypical that we all develop a dominant center and sort of disconnect from the other two. So, there’s no point in self-blaming, you know, and thinking that we are essentially wrong. You know, and actually blaming doesn’t help at all in the development, guilt, and so on. So, it’s important to understand that all of us come to this state, and only when you come to the state of using only one of the three brains, or three centers, we will be able to later open up the other two.

 

Beatrice

Right, the first step in the enneagram work is always self-observation. So, it’s about understanding and observing how you operate in the world. Like, for instance, for me, at one point, when I was younger, I asked a friend for some feedback. And one of the things he said to me was that sometimes he thought I could be a little too emotional. And I was really surprised by that, because I’ve always been pretty mental. You know, I grew up in a context in which education was really valued. And so, I think I developed my intellect quite a bit. However, when he pointed this out, I really realized that actually, a lot of times, I was overly emotional. And of course, I was sensitive and emotional at hearing that, but it was helpful because I came to see by observing myself, how sometimes when I thought I was thinking objectively or just analysing a situation, what I was thinking about was actually really coloured by my emotions, in really big ways.

 

Uranio

Yes, it makes sense for a heart type. And even the first reaction of feeling surprised with that may have been emotional.

 

Beatrice

Right. Feeling surprised, and also maybe if I’m honest, a little bit hurt, and like feeling criticized. I think one of the aspects of being a heart type, and especially a two like I am, is that I can be easily hurt by things. And that’s a kind of over sensitivity that can come along with being a heart type, being centered in my emotions.

 

Uranio

So, I can also share one example of myself with you, who’s listening, just to see how different I may be from Bea as a mental type. So, in my teenage years, I had a girlfriend and I decided to break up with her. And I did what I consider to be the most brilliant thing ever, which was explaining to her the multiple reasons that made sense for us to break up. And then, after I made my very well-built speech, she just said: ” you know, I’m feeling hurt by you right now, because you’re just trying to explain it all”. And then, I wouldn’t say I was surprised, because, you know, the way I function as a five is like: I was shocked. And I didn’t really feel much at the time, but I was sort of paralysed. But that made me think a lot and see how I was very mental, and when I was disconnecting from my emotions.

 

Beatrice

And I think another thing that happens with head types, and maybe you can tell us how this happens exactly, is they can think they’re feeling an emotion, but they may really be just thinking about the emotion.

 

Uranio

Yes, and also sensations the same way. it’s like using the mind as an intermediate to all other things. Because, you know, deep inside we have fear.

 

Beatrice

Or an intermediary.

 

Uranio

Thanks for correcting my English. I love learning.

 

Beatrice

I hate to interrupt you.

 

Uranio

No, don’t. And I won’t be surprised or shocked or hurt, right?

 

Beatrice

Oh, right. I need to remember that.

 

Uranio

Yes. Okay. So, Gurdjieff, Bea, used to say that…

 

Beatrice

And remember, Gurdjieff was an Armenian mystic who lived in the first part of the 20th century, born, I think, around 1890,

 

Uranio

Before that, 1870s.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, and he was a mystic that had travelled all over the world in search of truth and knew a lot about a lot of things. But he’s really the expert source where we get a lot of our information about the deeper meaning of the enneagram symbol, and also a path of self-work, called the fourth way, which he taught a lot in his life, about how we can transform ourselves into our high, and achieve our higher capacities.

 

Uranio

Yes, thanks for, you know, summarizing a bit of who he is. And actually, the fourth way means the work with all three ways, or three centers, at the same time. You know, he actually divided up all spiritual traditions and wisdom schools, in terms of what center they focused on the most. And he said that he thought it was better to work with all three centers at all times, and even in a confusing way for the students so that the person wouldn’t get too accustomed to that.

 

Beatrice

And so, correct me if I’m wrong, because I think you know a little bit more about this than I do. But did he say that, for instance, Christianity was a heart-based path. Say, Buddhism would be a head or a mental based path, and Islam a body based path?

 

Uranio

No, actually, Islam is also a heart-based path. Big time, it’s all about devotion and recitation of God.

 

Beatrice

I know Sufism is. I thought our Muslim friends have said that the Muslim religion is a little bit of a one-ish path.

 

Uranio

Well, yeah, but it doesn’t mean that it is based in the body path. You know, a body path would be more the Hinduism, and you know, controlling the body. Actually, Gurdjieff said the first way is the way of the faquir.

 

Beatrice

Like some form of yoga, perhaps.

 

Uranio

Yes, yoga is very body based. Or even people that often times, do self-development work through Pilates, or through being an athlete, you know. That is self-knowledge, self-knowledge of the body and controlling the body. And it’s one very valid way. The second way is using the heart like in devotional states, like in prayer.

 

Beatrice

Focusing on loving the higher power God.

 

Uranio

Exactly. And most western religions are second way. Now Buddhism, for instance, is third way. Not the only one. Taoism and others are also. But anyway, it’s interesting this concept of using all three. But not only for spiritual traditions, but also for us. So, what Gurdjieff said was, we are sub humans if we’re not using all three. We are not yet humans. So, to be a human means to us all three. Now, this may seem a simple concept, but let’s think of it, you know, in a specific example. Imagine that we have just, we are waking up, beginning of our day, and then we are using the three centers in the way we should, right?! How would that be? When we wake up, we immediately empty our headspace from any dream we are having. We don’t feel anything and we come to our bodies and scratch, feeling the body, then we stand up without much delay. And because we are in touch with our bodies, then we go to the bathroom and we mechanically do all operations in the bathroom, you know, the normal ones in the morning. Then we come back without thinking anything. Then we come back and see someone who lives with us, and then we get out of our body and come to our heart. And then we see the person and we smile, or we communicate or, you know, just externalize any emotions that come, and we see the person, and we relate to the person. And then after a while, we go away, and we get out of the heart, go to the body to walk, and then we need to think about the day. And then we come up to our heads and think about it. So, this discernment of what center is the right one to be using at all times is what’s needed. Gurdjieff was quite demanding. He would say that, you know, the work started when we manage to balance back the three centers, not that it finished.

 

Beatrice

Right. He also said that one of the first steps in inner work is observing the wrong work of the centers.

 

Uranio

Because they steal energy from one another all the time.

 

Beatrice

Right, so we need to observe, are we doing certain tasks using the appropriate center, using the center that’s most well suited to doing that particular task? Like, you sometimes give the example of driving as being a task that’s best done from the body center, or the movement center. That if we drive using our emotions, or our heart, for instance, that’s not really the right way to do it. Because as I’ve seen, some people I know drive from their heart, it means stopping too fast when there’s a feeling or maybe driving angry, which can be dangerous.

 

Uranio

Yes, I can drive at times with my head when I’m not really present. And that means that I, you know, lose my way, that I’m distracted and so on. Because the head is much slower than the heart. And the heat is slower than the body. Actually, I heard once that a thought has the speed of x, an emotion has the speed of 10 X, and the sensation in the body, an instinct has the speed of 100 X. but even people who are body types when driving may make mistakes, because they are in one center only. Like nowadays, it’s easier to drive because of GPS, that we all have. But some body types just want to drive with their belly and smelling where they need to go next. And, you know, they lose the opportunity of being more effective in getting to where they need to get by just using a mental resource called GPS, you know?!

 

Beatrice

Right. I’ve also noticed some nines who tend to be very easy-going, and relaxed and friendly drive really fast. For some reason. Maybe it’s a body thing, but they drive surprisingly fast. Like all of a sudden, there’s a kind of a lightness and purpose that really makes them go just very rapidly in the car.

 

Uranio

Yeah, interesting. I haven’t thought of that. Now, maybe we could talk a bit more about the three centers. And what it really means to be someone who’s dominant center is in one of these triads, because I think you and I have an impression that most people don’t really know how it is to be a body type, a heart type or a head type.

 

Beatrice

I agree. And especially since these three centers are very foundational, they’re sort of a deeper level, or on a more fundamental level connected to the type-based behaviours and patterns. So, I think it is really important to understand what it’s like to be a heart type and how they operate versus a head type versus a body type. I know, for instance, when we teach our course, training professionals, like coaches, therapists, leaders, spiritual directors on how to use the enneagram in the most effective ways, we spent some time talking about the differences when you’re working with a head type, like even things about how you want to sit with a head type versus a heart type versus a body type. You know, how you want to match their energy so that you can really form a good rapport with the person you’re working with.

 

Uranio

And people are usually very surprised with what they learn.

 

Beatrice

And it’s funny because as we’ve been teaching this, I’ve even realized how in the past I made some mistakes.

 

Uranio

Oh, I’ve made many mistakes with you.

 

Beatrice

And I think to myself, no wonder why that five client never came back or, no wonder that eight never came back after that first session when I didn’t realize what it meant to be dealing with an eight, in terms of the fact that they were coming from their body center and not the heart center, like as is my bias.

 

Uranio

So, one of the benefits of learning about this is relating better with people of different centers. And if you’re working with people of different centers, you may get across to people more easily, you know, and communicate really.

 

Beatrice

And I know sometimes you’re still mystified by me as a heart center, right?

 

Uranio

What do you mean?

 

Beatrice

I notice sometimes it’s still hard for you to deal with me coming from the heart center.

 

Uranio

The same way you with me, isn’t it?

 

Beatrice

Yes. It can be so surprising…

 

Uranio

Even when we know all this, it’s still hard. If we don’t do our work.

 

Beatrice

We have to stay present. We’re doing our best.

 

Uranio

Yeah, sometimes we have hard times. But usually you go through them and everything gets better. You know, it’s important to have humour as we do. But anyway, let’s talk about the body types. So, what do you think Bea? What does it really mean to be a body type having the instinctual center as the dominant one?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think there’s a kind of groundedness and presence in the physical body that is really primary. Now, of course, not all body types are always grounded in the body in a good way all the time. But when they can really feel their bodies and be grounded, there’s a kind of naturalness to that, I think, for body types, that the other two types don’t necessarily feel as easily or as readily.

 

Uranio

Yes, I fully agree with you, I just want to make a discernment between what you called grounding and what sometimes spiritual traditions and some good psychological lines call presence. So, presence is being in the three centers, being full in the body. It’s not necessarily that the body types are present in that sense, but they are actually present in the body and being more energized in the body, more aware of the body, as you said, right? And what else, what else is important? I think we could mention maybe that body types are more based in sensations. The sensations become the primary way they perceive reality, right? It’s through the five senses. What are the five senses? It’s tasting. Help me with the right English words. How you use it? Tasting, touch, smelling, hearing and seeing. Yeah, right. So, these five senses, integrate what we call sensations. And some people mistake instincts for intuition. It’s not the same thing. We are not saying that the body types, eights, nines and ones are intuitive. The difference is that instinct is more spontaneity of the body, while intuition is the spontaneity of the soul. It’s the sixth sense, right? So, it’s not the sixth sense here, is the five senses. Now, the body types, you know, they feel those sensations first and then they get access to emotions and thoughts next. So, it’s actually about the order of the factors here, what we use first, how information is coming into us, what is the gateway.

 

Beatrice

I think for body types, it’s also about experience as opposed to emotion or thought. A friend of mine who is a nine, which is a body type, says when he’s trying to make a decision, it can be very hard for him, you know, making decisions can be challenging for nines. And he’ll go back and forth in his head, but he said that if he can experience one option or the other, then he can know very quickly. So, he might sample, he might give it a try. You know, what would it be like to actually have the experience of making one choice versus the other. And once he allows himself to have that almost sensorial experience, then it becomes very clear to him very quickly.

 

Uranio

That’s a very good point. Yes. So, body types can’t just understand something from a head perspective or feel like they want to do something. Which would be the heart space. They need to go do and try to see what’s happening. It’s like touching with the hands, you know. This is quite important. What you’re calling experience. So, I think, Bea that the most brilliant definition of instinct that I’ve ever seen was by my daughter, when she was extremely young, I think she was four, five or six years old. And she said to me one day “Dad, you know, I had this experience I think it’s a little weird. You promise not to judge me?” And I said, of course my darling I won’t judge you.

 

Beatrice

And your daughter’s a body type, right?

 

Uranio

Yeah, I think she’s a body type. Do you agree?

 

Beatrice

Yes.

 

Uranio

Yes. So, she’s must probably an eight, but she doesn’t know yet. Then she said that the experience was that inside her belly, she felt like there was a tube, like a test tube, is that the name?

 

Beatrice

Yes.

 

Uranio

Test tube. And that when something right was happening, that tube would fill in with green light, green colour. And when something was wrong, it would feel with red colour.

 

Beatrice

Interesting.

 

Uranio

Like a traffic light. And she gave me an example of when she was doing a test at school and that if she was answering the question in a wrong way, the tube will fill in with red ink, but what she told me then, that shocked me was, and I think this is crazy Dad. I can’t talk to the teachers about it and I’m afraid even to talk to you about that. And my reaction was: “Can you teach me how to do that? That’s the most brilliant thing I’ve ever heard!”

 

Beatrice

It is brilliant!

 

Uranio

Because actually, you know, we don’t really value. We don’t understand it. As a society, we undervalue quite a bit the instinctual intelligence. Which is exactly what she said. it’s a knowing through sensations. And she was talking about something she senses inside her body, and she visualizes, she even smells it, you know? So, it’s a way of knowing that’s very direct, and at least as important as the head knowing and the heart knowing. We don’t talk much about it. You know, in science for instance, we’ve been talking forever about the mental space, you know, the cognitive intelligence, then we started talking with Daniel Goleman decades go about Emotional Intelligence. But not many people talk about the body intelligence.

 

Beatrice

It’s true. And instinctual intelligence is very little understood and certainly not talked about. And I saw some people talking about this at an enneagram conference once. And they actually talked about how they believed a lot of kids have problems in school because they’re body types, they have instinctive intelligence and It’s so not understood. Our schools are oriented toward the head types.

 

Uranio

Teachers are selected only if they are not body types.

 

Beatrice

And also, the things people do in school. Like, they talked about how marching and formation and doing things physically were really important for body type kids and that wasn’t even a part of the curriculum. And then, when some of these kids act out or get restless, then they get medicated or something. They get turned into a problem and it all sums with the fact that we really don’t understand instinctive intelligence as we should.

 

Uranio

That’s too bad and, you know, when we are not really open to learning from difference, we think that the problem is whoever is different from us. You know, there’s a poet in Brazil who used to say that “the hell is the other”. And, you know, it was not only him who said that. So, I’m very interested in what you have just said. What else do you think could help us all value the body intelligence. Or whoever is not a body type, how could they develop that, like you said. Walking formation? What else? I’ve seen you talking about routine as something important for that, it seems.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I think anything that is happening in the here and now the body is, by definition, the only of these three centers that is rooted in the present moment. So, I almost think we need a revolution in our culture that recognizes instinctual intelligence as equal to the center of intelligence of the head and the heart. I think even now, we still privilege the head over to the heart. Even though we understand what emotional intelligence is much more than we used to. There is still a way that, sometimes, I know in certain cultures there’s a stigma against being too emotional. So, I think we have a long way to go in seeing these three functions or these three centers as equally important and needing to be balanced. Ideally.

 

Uranio

Great. Basically, developing the five senses and our capacity to be in touch with them and to absorb information from them is a brilliant thing to do to develop the body center.

 

Beatrice

And I know that some of us, many of us, are often out of touch with our bodies. Even body types can be out of touch with their bodies. But I remember when I was going through my psychotherapeutic training and I took a Gestalt course. And gestalt is a form of therapy that’s very body based and very based in the here and now experience. What they used to always ask us, “what are you feeling in your body now? What are you feeling in your body now? What do you feel in your body now?”. Of course, this was 20 years ago. And I was always very frustrated, because the answer is always “nothing, I’m not feeling anything, or I’m feeling fine”. And what I think was happening is I was kind of cut off from my body. And it was hard to see that and realize that, and know with confidence that I could develop a stronger connection.

 

Uranio

And how important was it for you, Bea, to develop this body awareness and get more, you know, conscious in the body center?

 

Beatrice

Very important. I think one thing that helped me is that I was athlete from early on, I played sports from when I was a kid. So that certainly helped. I was always very grateful to my father, who first got me to play softball, and then soccer. But another part of it, I think, is continuing to exercise and do things that put you in touch with the body every day. Certainly, Yoga is a fantastic way to get in touch with the body. I think there are different forms of meditative practices that are body based. And I think all of these things can be really key to developing an ongoing connection with your body, or even being able to see when you’re not connected to your body and to, you know, take action to become more connected.

 

Uranio

I need to get more inspired by you and exercise more, especially walk more in the mornings, before we are teaching the workshop, like you do. You walk a lot. Actually, I get a little embarrassed to see you, you know. You’re a good example for me, and I need to follow it.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And whenever I say “Don’t you like to walk?” You say “I like having walked, but I don’t really like walking.” But I think maybe I can continue to pressure you into developing a liking for being in the body.

 

Uranio

I’ll try to open up myself more to your suggestions. But I also had an explosion of sensations during a meditation, many, many years ago. I mean, 15, 20 years ago. And that made a huge difference in my life. Now, in my case, for instance, I am a five and therefore a head type. And I developed the sensations next. But the emotions are, you know, something that I’ve been opening up more and more in more recent years. So, it’s like, this is the third center that I am integrating. But my point is, I know many other fives who opened up the emotional center before the body center, as a second center. So, I just want to point out that, at least I don’t agree, I want to see your opinion, with approaches that say that each of the nine types develop always one particular second center after the dominant one. I think there is no rule for that. I think that it depends highly on who the person is and the life experiences. But what do you think?

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I agree. I think it depends on the person. But I hope that you hurry up and develop your connection with your heart center, so you can understand me better.

 

Uranio

You even need to lend me a good part of your tears.

 

Beatrice

I’ll try to work on that.

 

Uranio

It’s so easy for you to cry and so hard for me to cry.

 

Beatrice

It’s hard for me not to cry actually.

 

Uranio

Very hard for me to cry. And it’s not exactly about being a woman or a man, it has to do with the triads, I think.

 

Beatrice

Yes, it has to do with being in these centers or not.

 

Uranio

Well, I admire you for your heart openness. So, I’ll try to do more of that.

 

Beatrice

I think we need to maybe move on to the heart center, talking about that. But before we do, I want to say one more thing about the body center. Lately, I’ve been really working on getting in touch with my intuition. Which as you said, is something more about the soul than the body. But I think different people experience their intuition differently.

 

Uranio

And sometimes through one of these three centers.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And what I’ve been learning about myself is that when it comes to intuition, I get a lot of my information through my body. Which is very interesting. Sometimes through my heart as well. Like sometimes when I’m tuning into something, I’ll get a big emotion, but a lot of times I get a sensation in one part of my body or another that gives me information. So that’s been very interesting. So, we don’t always develop, you know, our ability to access intuition in the exact same center that we’re based in.

 

Uranio

Good point that maybe we could talk about this in a future podcast.

 

Beatrice

Let’s do a short break.

 

Man

The enneagram 2.0 podcast goes live every other Thursday on all main platforms. Become a member now at chestnut Paes online for a lot more enneagram content from Bea and Uranio. Sign up for the annual plan and get access to hundreds of audio files, videos, monthly online classes, articles, and even full online enneagram workshops. It’s a great value, visit www.cp enneagram.com

 

Uranio

Let’s move on to the heart triad. How is it really, to be a heart type?

 

Beatrice

Oh, It’s very hard.

 

Uranio

You’re already feeling it?

 

Beatrice

We’re often misunderstood, which is not easy. I think it’s just… I mean, I wasn’t always connected to my heart in the way I’m now. So, we need to say that I think part of developing generally for all of us, is even getting more access to the center that we’re already based in. So, when I was younger, and I think this is part of being a type two, I wasn’t that connected to my emotions. I mean, I would get emotional but I wouldn’t always know exactly what I was feeling. It would be more of an automatic response that I wasn’t always very good at managing or even understanding. When I first got into therapy, when I was, you know, late 20s early 30s, my therapist would say to me, like therapist do, “What are you feeling now, what are you feeling now?”. And often my answer was I didn’t know. And so, the early years of my therapy, I think, were all about me getting more connected to my emotions. Now, again it doesn’t mean I wasn’t coming from my emotions. It just that I wasn’t always accessing my emotions in a clear or coherent way. But over time, as I worked on this, I became more able to label my emotions and understand what I was feeling in the moment. And now I would say many years later, I’m very emotional. I usually understand what I’m feeling pretty well when it happens. And now it’s really about managing my emotions, you know. I’ll know when I’m angry, I’ll know when I’m sad, sometimes I’ll be having a big emotional reaction and I have to sort out if there’s a combination of feelings in there. But I would say, I’m generally very emotional, and I experience a lot of life through either my emotional reactions to things, or my avoidance of things based on wanting to avoid feeling bad.

 

Uranio

Right. Yeah. So, I think, correct me if I’m wrong, I think that you’re referring to some specific things for type two, within the heart triad, because it’s easier for them to be in touch with other people’s emotions than with their own, right? And another thing is, although you were not so much in touch with your own emotions in the beginning, I know you’re very much so right now, you were already emotional, in general, right? You’ve always been emotional, but not necessarily in touch with your own emotions. Is this correct? Is this a good description or not?

 

Beatrice

Well, I would say not always having a clear and coherent connection to what I was feeling in the moment and describe it accurately.

 

Uranio

But were you emotional in the inside, at least?

 

I would say yes. Again, I would have a big emotional reaction, but sometimes it would take me by surprise or sometimes if you asked me what I was feeling and why I wouldn’t know. So, I had to work to almost develop a stronger connection between my consciousness, and my emotional responses, let’s say,

 

Uranio

it makes sense. Now, I get really surprised at times about some capacities that heart types like you have. And I want to start talking about them. it’s hard to describe them but then, maybe you can explain this more. It’s like, it’s non cognitive at all. And you heart types have this capacity of feeling whatever anyone else in the room is feeling, and only by the person getting into the room. It’s like there is an antenna in the heart that goes inside the other person’s heart, and just feels what the other one is feeling. it’s obviously very differentiated capacity for empathy, but it’s also a capacity of the heart of tuning into other people’s feelings. Depending on what the heart type is among two, three and four, then there is an adaptation happening to match the other person’s feelings, but not necessarily. It’s just a heart’s knowing, and it’s very quick and it happens all the time, you don’t even need to know the person much. Although it may help if you know the person. Have I described it accurately? Can you explain us this mysterious thing, mysterious for a non-heart type.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s mysterious for us too, because it happens without us thinking about it. it’s very automatic. And, again, part of what’s interesting about teaching this to people is we’ve had to think about it more, something that’s usually just very unconscious. But I would say, for me, the way I would language it, and one of the things I’ve noticed when we teach the three centers is, using different language kind of gives a more accurate sense of what’s happening. The way I think I would experience is, it feels like reading people, almost energetically reading people. Now you’re reading the emotional state, but for instance sometimes I’ll have a sense immediately of someone who likes me or doesn’t, someone who was open to me or not, someone who I can read how they’re feeling or not. It’s almost like: Is someone available to me or not? Is someone feeling good about me or not? This is a little bit more of the two angle on it too, I think. But generally, it’s a sense of being able to read people or read a room and sense how people are feeling. I know for instance when I’m giving a talk in front of people, I’ll be tuning into the people I feel like who are with me. You know, almost people who are connecting with what I’m saying or liking what I’m saying. Sometimes I’ll look at people I think, ooh, either they don’t like what I’m saying or they’re not really listening to what I’m saying, and of course, that bothers me and I go back to looking at the people who are approving of me, of course, to make myself feel better. But there is this kind of sense of the heart reaching out and connecting or reading people.

 

Uranio

So, I find that brilliant, and I wish I had a little more of that. Now, it seems to me that the key thing is to understand that the one doing this reading is the heart, not the gut, like for body types, when they try to sense everything around them. Like, the heart is the one reading the situation and getting the information first and then spread it around to the rest of the organs or the, you know, all the being. Does this match your experience? like the heart is the one managing this whole thing?

 

Beatrice

Yeah, and it doesn’t even feel like it’s involving any other parts. It’s not spreading the information it’s just the organ that is handling the whole thing.

 

Uranio

And that is very very, very different from body types and from head types. Now, I have one more question for you. Before we talk briefly about how people of all types can develop the heart capacity. Now, my question is, you have described in your books, in your work, something that I really appreciate. You say that the core emotion for heart types is sadness. And this is new, you know, up to your book, authors used to say different things, shame or whatever, image. Or just, you know…

 

Beatrice

Or just feelings.

 

Uranio

Yeah. So, tell us about it.

 

Beatrice

So, I really strongly believe that the core emotion of the heart types is sadness, of course the core emotion for the body types is anger, the core emotions for the head types is fear. And it’s sadness for the heart types. I think it comes from the work of Oscar Ichazo, who is the person who is the source of all the enneagram information in the modern era, and that’s what he said, that these are the three emotions. But also, I believe that sadness is generated in heart types from an early experience of not being seen and appreciated for who you really are. I think we, heart types, get a message, and again, kind of subconsciously received, from the people around us that we’re not really loved for who we essentially are, for our true self, but for what we do for people or how we present ourselves. You know, for twos, they kind of get the message it’s for when you’re supportive of other people or when you’re doing things to please others or give to others, that’s when you get rewarded for. For threes I think it’s about when they achieve things when they perform well when they’re productive or effective or accomplished that they get the love. And for fours I think they have a sense that it’s when they’re seen for who they uniquely are. And that’s why they’re often driven to self-express, and they want to be understood because they want to stand out a little bit, they want to be seen as being unique or special. And I think in all these three ways, it’s like we have to do something to get the love. We can’t just be loved as we are, and I think that is the source of a bottom-line sadness that the heart types have. And I’ve checked this out with a lot of other heart types. And I think especially people who’ve worked with the enneagram for a long time and who’ve done inner work, most heart types I know agree that it’s sadness, and that is the core emotion of the heart types, that sort of the bottom-line thing. Now this doesn’t mean that heart types go around feeling sad all the time, just like it doesn’t mean that…

 

Uranio

Or that all the types don’t feel sad.

 

Beatrice

Exactly, or that body types are always angry or that head types are always fearful.

 

Uranio

it’s more central.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. it shapes the character the relationship to that core emotion. And so, of course, in each of these three centers, there’s one type that over does the core emotion, one type that under does it and one type that’s kind of in the middle or in conflict with it. I think in the heart center the fours overdo sadness, the threes under do it and the twos are sort of a little bit in the middle and conflict. Sometimes they repress it sometimes they’re very in touch with it.

 

Uranio

And in terms of developing the emotional center. It seems to me that it’s crucial for everybody of all types to be in touch with all emotions like anger, sadness, fear, maybe also happiness. And also, you know, put oneself in the position of feeling more, whatever makes you feel more. It could be a movie, could be a relationship.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. Turning up the volume on feelings, making a practice of that. if you feel a little bit of something, try to get more into that, try to understand what’s going on there and leave more space for being more in touch with more emotions.

 

Uranio

Now, what about the head types, the head center Bea, what is your experience with me, for instance, as a business partner and a friend. Given that I am a head center. What is it that surprise you?

 

Beatrice

So, types five, six and seven are head center types and I think it surprises me that it’s just all about understanding and making mental sense of things. And that’s so much of what the full picture is and that oftentimes there’s a way of not being connected to the emotions, or the body. But I think it’s all about analysis, it’s about whether things make sense or not, it’s about mental models, it’s about compartmentalization, it’s about different ways of thinking. But what do you think? You’re the expert on the head center, tell us what your experience is.

 

Uranio

So, the experience is that, for instance, during the 30 seconds that you provided these information and explanation of how you experienced me and head types I had four or five different ideas about it. So, I remember the first time I told you that this is my process, that I’m hearing but I’m thinking while I hear.

 

Beatrice

Thinking a lot of different thoughts, while you hear.

 

Uranio

Your first reaction was, he never pays attention to me!

 

Beatrice

Yeah, no wonder he never listens to anything I ever say. He’s having about 100 thoughts while I’m saying something. How could he possibly be understanding?

 

Uranio

Not true. I’m always paying attention to you. Is that I’m also trying to think of other new things and make sense of things. So, if I am in my personality, my lower self, the head literally doesn’t stop, and it’s much more active than people who are not mental types. And I hate when people say that this is the intellectual triad. I don’t think we are necessarily more intellectual than other people. I think this has to do with the level of education that people got and not the type. So, it’s just using the head but not necessarily in helpful ways, you know. It’s just a vice, an addiction to using the head a lot. Now, if I’m too much in my personality, I’m using it to think of anything. Now, even when I’m in a better place, when I’m very present, my head is still operating in another way. Like, when you say something, I’m making sense of that in connection to everything else. So, it’s still using the head to understand a bigger picture, a bigger thing, making associations with everything. As a default, we come to the world knowing how to do the SWOT analysis, like people in business do. Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats and scenarios and different causes and consequences, we think in a complex way. This is a little bit of what it is to be a head type for me. And then fear as the main emotion. Many times, is very unconscious, and it’s not any kind of fear, it’s a fear of the unknown. So, to me it’s like all head types, fives, sixes and sevens have some sort of intolerance against what they don’t predict, what they cannot anticipate. They need to anticipate mentally what is going to happen. Otherwise, they will not feel okay and fear is the intolerance to the unknown. Now, there are different kinds of fear. Type five fear is more fear of feeling. Type six fear is fear of being, like being the authority, and type seven fear is fear of suffering. So, we use the head to make associations and understand things in the bigger picture. And like, as you said, in therapy and coaching it’s really more than half the way when we understand the problem. And many times, just by understanding, we know the solution, and we even know what to do, really. Many times, because we are head types, we need a push. right?

 

Beatrice

A push to action.

 

Uranio

To action. but it’s not that we don’t know what to do. It’s like when things make sense, we feel like we are ready. You know, so understanding something is perhaps 70 80% of what we need. And that seems to be different for, you know, you or other people who are not mental, very surprisingly!

So how different is it for you?

 

Beatrice

Yes. Well, I mean, even the word understanding, I think, can mean different things, you know. There’s mental understanding but then there’s emotional understanding. You know, I think one of the big things for us heart types, is we want to be understood by others, and we often feel either misunderstood or afraid of being misunderstood. And that’s sort of an emotional understanding. But I think what you’re talking about is more of a mental understanding, almost being able to create a mental model of what’s happening or, like you said, organize your thoughts or figure something out. And even the language we’re using, I think, understanding can apply to different levels. But, like figure things out, make sense of things, these different phrases can be important in differentiating what the different centers are all about.

 

Uranio

Yeah, in the very basic level, the difference between the three centers is where we concentrate our vital energy. Like, head types concentrate the energy around the head. Heart types around the heart and body types around the belly. So, when we learn how to redistribute the energy all around the body, we are doing the work of rebalancing our centers of intelligence.

 

Beatrice

Yes, in our live workshops, sometimes we have people actually walk around, putting their attention in different centers, and we have them do different things to evoke the experience of being a head type, a heart type, or a body type. And it’s often very funny for people to experience what it’s like to be in a different center than they’re in. Like, I remember, when I first would walk around trying to have the experience of a head type, I would get a headache or feel dizzy, or feel like I was gonna fall over. And people have different experiences when they kind of try to get into a different space than they actually live in every day.

 

Uranio

And that’s development, that it’s not easy, but it’s possible.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And trying or having a new experience can be really eye opening in terms of having a sense of what the different experiences are, depending on what type you are.

 

Uranio

And then finally open up all three at once. Now, one of the ways to develop the mental energy is just by doing mental stuff, could be reading news, and I’ve seen many types that avoid doing that, who are not mental, because either they don’t like it, but sometimes they come with an excuse that they don’t feel well to read so many bad things.

 

Beatrice

It makes them feel bad to know what’s going on in the world.

 

Uranio

Or the feel too much when the read. So that’s something that you can do, if you want to develop the head. And by the way, Bea, you know, I think that self-help literature and, you know, some recent work on whatever self-development line we’re talking about, has somehow demonized the head. You know, it’s like, we need to develop the heart only. And it’s not true, people who are not head types need to develop the headspace.

 

Beatrice

Yes. That makes sense. And I think our society, especially in the West has been so head centered for so long, in ways that I think have been very unconscious and not very seen.

 

Uranio

It’s a push back.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, it could be a push back, a backlash to kind of finally realizing “Wow, we haven’t really been honouring the heart or the body at all!”. And our education system is completely determined by teaching to the head.

 

Uranio

Right. But even things like, you know, doing crosswords, or whatever, you know, or just talking, promoting discussions with other people can be useful to develop the head.

 

Beatrice

Yes, and certainly as a heart type, it’s been important for me to learn to be more objective. Meaning taking the emotion out of it. And that’s something that many head types can do quite easily, which is hard for me to do.

 

Jingle

Top Five

 

Uranio

Bea and I decided to include this session called top five at the end of each of our podcasts recording. We want it to be a fun and light moment. It can be top five anything related to the enneagram. Today, we are going to talk about the top five friendliest enneagram personality types. Can be friendliest also in the sense of happiness, but it’s mostly coming across as being friendly or being perceived as friendly. Now, sometimes we are going to discuss not only types but also subtypes in here, like we can say sexual Nine or social nine instead of nine only, or not. It’s our choice, and it’s very free. Now, if you don’t know about subtype, don’t worry, because you will learn about this as we record more podcasts. And this session might be useful for you also in this sense. So, what is your number five Bea?

 

Jingle

Five.

 

Beatrice

My number five person that, when we say “in personality”, I think what we mean is, before they’ve done a lot of inner work, let’s say, just the basic personality. This is the sense of friendliness. So, for my number five I put self-preservation four. And this is a four that is a little bit different than fours sometimes get stereotyped as, in that it can be a bit of a sunnier four, it’s a four that internalizes some of their emotions and usually puts on a happy face. So, they can be pretty sunny and friendly and trying to do the right thing, so I put self-preservation four as my number five. What about you?

 

Uranio

So, I chose… I was in doubt between five and four here, you know, which one to put in number five or number four, but I ended up having self-preservation six on five. You know, this is one particular kind of six that comes across in a very warm and friendly way, just as a strategy to avoid problems with anyone outside. Self-preservation sixes are usually smiling, or they tell jokes, or they’re just nice people. And they come across as being friendly.

 

Beatrice

And it’s a coping strategy for dealing with fear, right? Yes, because they look for protectors and allies and friends so that they won’t feel so alone and afraid. And so, they tend to be warm people. In fact, the name for self-preservation six is warmth.

 

Uranio

Yes. And, you know, most of the cases of the friendliest ones, maybe, you know, what they need to develop, one of the things is to get more in touch with anger, you know. These types tend to be a little less in touch with anger.

 

Beatrice

Are we saying it’s not good to be friendly?

 

Uranio

Well, it depends. I mean, it may be good in life, and in a functional way. But if these people want to self-develop more significantly, they may need to be less nice.

 

Beatrice

So maybe part of the personalities defence is being friendly, I think that’s something to keep in mind.

 

Uranio

And also, not being in touch with the important emotion of anger.

 

Beatrice

Right. So friendly, of course, can be a very good thing. But being too friendly can also be a way of avoiding other emotions or other ways of presenting oneself that may be more authentic.

 

Uranio

So, my number four is social seven, I think that this specific seven is not only enthusiastic, like the sexual seven. This is the type that comes across as being very nice to other people, very receptive. And they listen more to other people, and they help others when they are in deep need. They are sometimes very altruistic, and they put other people’s needs and priorities many times first, they help, they do things that are unbelievable at times to help others.

 

Beatrice

So, my number four, it’s funny, when I first started, I had the same number five as you I had self-preservation six as my number five, and then I switched it with self pres. four. So actually, I have self-preservation six in the fourth place, and for many of the reasons that we just described that you’ve had it in your fifth place.

 

Uranio

What is your number three?

 

Beatrice

My number three is seven. And I didn’t specify a subtype, I was thinking, is it one or the other that’s friendlier. But when I think of all the sevens I know, I think all of them are pretty friendly. So, I put seven in general as my number three friendliest outlook. You know, pretty friendly, generally.

 

Uranio

Do you know who I put in number three? I put you Bea Chestnut!

 

Beatrice

Only three? Me? I always get stuck on three. Remember two top fives ago, I was at three, too, and I put you at one.

 

Uranio

I’ll do it better next time.

Okay. I doubt that you have put social fives like me on one this time, but Okay. So self-pres. two is my third one. I think that self-pres. twos really want to be nice and come across as friendly and cute. And they have this ability to make other people like them. Maybe they are the ones that show up as being the happiest, or more two, but also sometimes the most, you know, sensitive and emotional. They are usually very nice people to be around.

 

Beatrice

I’m looking forward to thinking what two other types you think are friendlier than us self-preservation twos.

 

Uranio

And you’ve just heard an example of how pride is usually the emotion here!

 

Beatrice

I won’t deny it. I still always get caught up in pride. That’s true.

 

Uranio

So, what’s your second?

 

Beatrice

So, my second is not five. It’s nine. Nine in general. Yeah. Again, I tried to think of the three. I think maybe social nines are probably a little bit more friendly, but I think all nines are pretty friendly. And so, I put nine as number two.

 

Uranio

So, my number two is social nine. I think that actually this is the second most friendly on the enneagram. And I think they are really open to everybody else that comes close to them. It’s like all my social nine friends are so receptive. Sometimes they can also be a little fierce, forceful, you know, but maybe it’s only a matter of making things happen that it’s hard for them to go against. Only social nines who develop more do that and become a little less nice. It’s paradoxical. Because this is an example where becoming less nice is a sign of development. But in personality, they tend to, you know, know everybody, you know. It’s that kind of people that when you’re leaving social gathering, they take much longer to leave because they know everybody, and they start talking to everybody. And they, you know, get hooked in conversations with pretty much everyone, but that’s also a sign of being friendly. Now, my number one is the sexual nine. I think sexual nines tend to be a little more friendly at times than social nines. Even more so. Maybe I may be wrong. But this is my first impression given several sexual nines I know. I think they are, as you explain, they tend to be not very aggressive, very friendly, perhaps, you know, the social nine, has a little less time for things, for people, because they are really workaholic.

 

Beatrice

Can be a little more business-like at times.

 

Uranio

And I think that sexual nines are really all the time paying attention to you and not to themselves, and they tend to be in agreement with you, and come across as being calm and receptive. So, this is my number one. What is your number one?

 

Beatrice

My number one is two. And it’s not because of pride, I was just thinking about, like, who do I interact with in the world that seems extremely friendly. And it’s often when I meet other twos, and I actually put self-preservation and social because I think social twos fall into two categories. I think some social twos are among the friendliest people ever. They’re just very effusive and outgoing and very attuned to other people. Other social twos I think can be a little more tough, a little stronger, a little bit more ruthless, and, or maybe some times, not all social twos, but some social twos and some self-preservation twos. I know self-preservation twos tend to be very charming and outgoing. And I’m not just talking about myself, but wanting to make a good impression and very pleasing. And so, I kind of put both. I find one-to-one or sexual twos to be a little bit more remote, I would say sometimes. They tend to be a little more focused on one or two people and not everybody, not everybody gets the super friendly treatment, although certainly some sexual twos are extremely friendly.

 

Uranio

So basically, you are saying that you are the friendliest of all people you know.

 

Beatrice

Well, I have to say, this is not really fully a pride thing, because I don’t necessarily think friendly is being… because sometimes when I meet twos, to be really honest, and they’re super friendly, I think, wow, that person is really out of touch with their anger. It’s almost like they’re, you know, it’s a little bit like, self-preservation one can be super friendly and reaction formation or, you know, the defence mechanism of type one, to not feeling how resentful they are. I think sometimes twos can be that way. Like they’re almost too friendly. And I always think, oh, there is something going on in that person they are not looking at, because if they could get more in touch with their resentment and anger or even sadness, they probably wouldn’t be quite so friendly. So, I’m not necessarily saying this is always a healthy thing, but I find that twos.

 

Uranio

I think you may be right.

 

Beatrice

I think they really come out to meet you. You know, it’s like they’re really…

 

Uranio

And twos, different from nines, they go towards people, like, they are more proactive.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. They’re really that active in doing things for you. In fact, we’re staying right now at the home of a lovely two.

 

Uranio

We are in Egypt right now.

 

Beatrice

We’re in Egypt right now and she is doing a lot for us and incredibly generous. And it seems, you know, very healthy in her case, but just a very friendly presence from the moment we walked it.

 

Uranio

Yeah. this is Abdul-Rahmann Abdullah. A friend of ours here in Egypt. Okay, Bea I love talking to you. And you, who listens to this podcast. We definitely hope that you got a lot from it. And stay tuned on the enneagram 2.0 podcast

 

Woman

Please click on like to help spread the word on our podcast.

 

Man

Thanks for listening.

 

Jingle:

Enneagram 2.0, find your personality, Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. What’s your type, what’s your subtype, so much you can learn.  You can be amazing go ahead and transform. It’s for yourself and others grow and follow the flow. And also, for the planet, let your mind blow. It’s from Bea and Uranio, time for you to know and be your best self with enneagram 2.0. Psychology, self-mastery, work and relationships, spirituality. Come and join the podcast, oh yeah, will be fun. Explore the challenges that from now you’ll overcome. Enneagram 2.0. Tune in, it’s your personality. Enneagram 2.0 Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, Hey! Enneagram 2.0 tune in now.