Enneagram 2.0

02. We are Three Brain Beings

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Uranio

Hello, and welcome to the enneagram 2.0 Podcast. I am Uranio Paes.

 

Beatrice

And I am Beatrice Chestnut.

 

Uranio

And today, what is our theme Bea?

 

Beatrice

Today we’re talking about the enneagram’s three centers of intelligence.

 

Uranio

Yes, we are three brained beings. Right?

 

Beatrice

Yes, most people, especially in the West, think of humans as having one center of intelligence in our brain or heads. But actually, according to the enneagram system, we have three centers of intelligence, three ways of processing information from the outside world. One brain in our head, one brain or center intelligence in our heart, and one in our body or our belly.

 

Uranio

Yes. And even if we think about the brain itself, it has three big parts to it. The reptilian brain, which is more connected to the instinct, the limbic system, which is more connected to emotions, and the neocortex, which is more connected to thoughts. Right, Bea?

 

Beatrice

Exactly. So, the three parts of the brain correlate to these three centers of intelligence in different parts of our body. In addition to this, research recently has found that we actually have neural cells in our guts and our hearts.

 

Uranio

Yes, that’s quite interesting. And memory even is not only, you know, cognitive. Our body stores memory of all kinds, and our hearts. And we use it a lot to work with traumas and different things. Now, it’s also curious Bea, we sometimes talk about it, that everything on the enneagram comes in threes.

 

Beatrice

Right.

 

Uranio

Like, you know, we always need to think of three forces operating. Three centers of intelligence, and what else?

 

Beatrice

Three types within each center. And for each type, there are three subtypes. So, there’s actually 27 types. But I always like to start with three, because three is a little bit easier to understand than nine, and 27. Even though we talked about the nine types in our last episode, we’re going to talk a little bit about the three centers of intelligence today, because sometimes I think they’re not as fully understood as they might be. And when we work with the enneagram, thinking about the centers of intelligence, and these three different ways of interacting with the world can be really interesting in and of itself.

 

Uranio

Oh, yeah. Well, before we go on with this, I just want to mention that the enneagram comes in threes, as we said, because we need to integrate all three forces that we are talking about. The deeper meaning of the study of the centers of intelligence is to allow all of us to be able to operate with all three. So, it’s not only about defining what your dominant center of intelligence is, but also helping you open up access to the other two centers and finally become a three centred person. So, this means that if you are a mental type, you may also open up, you know, all your resources in your body, being more instinctual and also resources of the heart, being more emotional. And in all other cases for body types, for heart types.

 

Beatrice

But I think we need to start a little bit more back at the beginning. I think people who are new to the enneagram may not understand what these centers are and how the types are oriented.

 

Uranio

And, as you know, you need to know that in our dynamics here, Bea sometimes translates me. In two ways, both in my funny English and also in things that I tend to go deeper away…

 

Beatrice

Or more complex, perhaps.

 

Uranio

That’s our type biases. And maybe you’re seeing it right now, or listening to an example by me, how I might become overly mental. And how Bea can become very empathetic with you, who’s listening to us, because of her heart center dominance.

 

Beatrice

They’re the centers happening in action right now.

 

Uranio

Right now, yes, we are always very good examples to show you, actually not only good things, but our own biases.

 

Beatrice

Right. So, to start off with, we all have all three of these centers functioning in us if we’re alive. We all have a head center that we think with, we all have a heart center, and we all have a body center. However, when we come to identify with a personality early on, when we, you know, adopt a personality to survive in the world, we by definition get out of balance. And so, we end up coming more from one center than the other two. So, as we said, I’m a heart type. I’m a two. And I live more from my heart center, than I do the other two centers. And there’s a lot about the enneagram of personality, about understanding how we’re out of balance, and not fully in touch with a whole or a higher and complete self that we could be, which is, of course, the growth work associated with the enneagram.

 

Uranio

I like what you’re saying Bea because, you know, it’s archetypical that we all develop a dominant center and sort of disconnect from the other two. So, there’s no point in self-blaming, you know, and thinking that we are essentially wrong. You know, and actually blaming doesn’t help at all in the development, guilt, and so on. So, it’s important to understand that all of us come to this state, and only when you come to the state of using only one of the three brains, or three centers, we will be able to later open up the other two.

 

Beatrice

Right, the first step in the enneagram work is always self-observation. So, it’s about understanding and observing how you operate in the world. Like, for instance, for me, at one point, when I was younger, I asked a friend for some feedback. And one of the things he said to me was that sometimes he thought I could be a little too emotional. And I was really surprised by that, because I’ve always been pretty mental. You know, I grew up in a context in which education was really valued. And so, I think I developed my intellect quite a bit. However, when he pointed this out, I really realized that actually, a lot of times, I was overly emotional. And of course, I was sensitive and emotional at hearing that, but it was helpful because I came to see by observing myself, how sometimes when I thought I was thinking objectively or just analysing a situation, what I was thinking about was actually really coloured by my emotions, in really big ways.

 

Uranio

Yes, it makes sense for a heart type. And even the first reaction of feeling surprised with that may have been emotional.

 

Beatrice

Right. Feeling surprised, and also maybe if I’m honest, a little bit hurt, and like feeling criticized. I think one of the aspects of being a heart type, and especially a two like I am, is that I can be easily hurt by things. And that’s a kind of over sensitivity that can come along with being a heart type, being centered in my emotions.

 

Uranio

So, I can also share one example of myself with you, who’s listening, just to see how different I may be from Bea as a mental type. So, in my teenage years, I had a girlfriend and I decided to break up with her. And I did what I consider to be the most brilliant thing ever, which was explaining to her the multiple reasons that made sense for us to break up. And then, after I made my very well-built speech, she just said: ” you know, I’m feeling hurt by you right now, because you’re just trying to explain it all”. And then, I wouldn’t say I was surprised, because, you know, the way I function as a five is like: I was shocked. And I didn’t really feel much at the time, but I was sort of paralysed. But that made me think a lot and see how I was very mental, and when I was disconnecting from my emotions.

 

Beatrice

And I think another thing that happens with head types, and maybe you can tell us how this happens exactly, is they can think they’re feeling an emotion, but they may really be just thinking about the emotion.

 

Uranio

Yes, and also sensations the same way. it’s like using the mind as an intermediate to all other things. Because, you know, deep inside we have fear.

 

Beatrice

Or an intermediary.

 

Uranio

Thanks for correcting my English. I love learning.

 

Beatrice

I hate to interrupt you.

 

Uranio

No, don’t. And I won’t be surprised or shocked or hurt, right?

 

Beatrice

Oh, right. I need to remember that.

 

Uranio

Yes. Okay. So, Gurdjieff, Bea, used to say that…

 

Beatrice

And remember, Gurdjieff was an Armenian mystic who lived in the first part of the 20th century, born, I think, around 1890,

 

Uranio

Before that, 1870s.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, and he was a mystic that had travelled all over the world in search of truth and knew a lot about a lot of things. But he’s really the expert source where we get a lot of our information about the deeper meaning of the enneagram symbol, and also a path of self-work, called the fourth way, which he taught a lot in his life, about how we can transform ourselves into our high, and achieve our higher capacities.

 

Uranio

Yes, thanks for, you know, summarizing a bit of who he is. And actually, the fourth way means the work with all three ways, or three centers, at the same time. You know, he actually divided up all spiritual traditions and wisdom schools, in terms of what center they focused on the most. And he said that he thought it was better to work with all three centers at all times, and even in a confusing way for the students so that the person wouldn’t get too accustomed to that.

 

Beatrice

And so, correct me if I’m wrong, because I think you know a little bit more about this than I do. But did he say that, for instance, Christianity was a heart-based path. Say, Buddhism would be a head or a mental based path, and Islam a body based path?

 

Uranio

No, actually, Islam is also a heart-based path. Big time, it’s all about devotion and recitation of God.

 

Beatrice

I know Sufism is. I thought our Muslim friends have said that the Muslim religion is a little bit of a one-ish path.

 

Uranio

Well, yeah, but it doesn’t mean that it is based in the body path. You know, a body path would be more the Hinduism, and you know, controlling the body. Actually, Gurdjieff said the first way is the way of the faquir.

 

Beatrice

Like some form of yoga, perhaps.

 

Uranio

Yes, yoga is very body based. Or even people that often times, do self-development work through Pilates, or through being an athlete, you know. That is self-knowledge, self-knowledge of the body and controlling the body. And it’s one very valid way. The second way is using the heart like in devotional states, like in prayer.

 

Beatrice

Focusing on loving the higher power God.

 

Uranio

Exactly. And most western religions are second way. Now Buddhism, for instance, is third way. Not the only one. Taoism and others are also. But anyway, it’s interesting this concept of using all three. But not only for spiritual traditions, but also for us. So, what Gurdjieff said was, we are sub humans if we’re not using all three. We are not yet humans. So, to be a human means to us all three. Now, this may seem a simple concept, but let’s think of it, you know, in a specific example. Imagine that we have just, we are waking up, beginning of our day, and then we are using the three centers in the way we should, right?! How would that be? When we wake up, we immediately empty our headspace from any dream we are having. We don’t feel anything and we come to our bodies and scratch, feeling the body, then we stand up without much delay. And because we are in touch with our bodies, then we go to the bathroom and we mechanically do all operations in the bathroom, you know, the normal ones in the morning. Then we come back without thinking anything. Then we come back and see someone who lives with us, and then we get out of our body and come to our heart. And then we see the person and we smile, or we communicate or, you know, just externalize any emotions that come, and we see the person, and we relate to the person. And then after a while, we go away, and we get out of the heart, go to the body to walk, and then we need to think about the day. And then we come up to our heads and think about it. So, this discernment of what center is the right one to be using at all times is what’s needed. Gurdjieff was quite demanding. He would say that, you know, the work started when we manage to balance back the three centers, not that it finished.

 

Beatrice

Right. He also said that one of the first steps in inner work is observing the wrong work of the centers.

 

Uranio

Because they steal energy from one another all the time.

 

Beatrice

Right, so we need to observe, are we doing certain tasks using the appropriate center, using the center that’s most well suited to doing that particular task? Like, you sometimes give the example of driving as being a task that’s best done from the body center, or the movement center. That if we drive using our emotions, or our heart, for instance, that’s not really the right way to do it. Because as I’ve seen, some people I know drive from their heart, it means stopping too fast when there’s a feeling or maybe driving angry, which can be dangerous.

 

Uranio

Yes, I can drive at times with my head when I’m not really present. And that means that I, you know, lose my way, that I’m distracted and so on. Because the head is much slower than the heart. And the heat is slower than the body. Actually, I heard once that a thought has the speed of x, an emotion has the speed of 10 X, and the sensation in the body, an instinct has the speed of 100 X. but even people who are body types when driving may make mistakes, because they are in one center only. Like nowadays, it’s easier to drive because of GPS, that we all have. But some body types just want to drive with their belly and smelling where they need to go next. And, you know, they lose the opportunity of being more effective in getting to where they need to get by just using a mental resource called GPS, you know?!

 

Beatrice

Right. I’ve also noticed some nines who tend to be very easy-going, and relaxed and friendly drive really fast. For some reason. Maybe it’s a body thing, but they drive surprisingly fast. Like all of a sudden, there’s a kind of a lightness and purpose that really makes them go just very rapidly in the car.

 

Uranio

Yeah, interesting. I haven’t thought of that. Now, maybe we could talk a bit more about the three centers. And what it really means to be someone who’s dominant center is in one of these triads, because I think you and I have an impression that most people don’t really know how it is to be a body type, a heart type or a head type.

 

Beatrice

I agree. And especially since these three centers are very foundational, they’re sort of a deeper level, or on a more fundamental level connected to the type-based behaviours and patterns. So, I think it is really important to understand what it’s like to be a heart type and how they operate versus a head type versus a body type. I know, for instance, when we teach our course, training professionals, like coaches, therapists, leaders, spiritual directors on how to use the enneagram in the most effective ways, we spent some time talking about the differences when you’re working with a head type, like even things about how you want to sit with a head type versus a heart type versus a body type. You know, how you want to match their energy so that you can really form a good rapport with the person you’re working with.

 

Uranio

And people are usually very surprised with what they learn.

 

Beatrice

And it’s funny because as we’ve been teaching this, I’ve even realized how in the past I made some mistakes.

 

Uranio

Oh, I’ve made many mistakes with you.

 

Beatrice

And I think to myself, no wonder why that five client never came back or, no wonder that eight never came back after that first session when I didn’t realize what it meant to be dealing with an eight, in terms of the fact that they were coming from their body center and not the heart center, like as is my bias.

 

Uranio

So, one of the benefits of learning about this is relating better with people of different centers. And if you’re working with people of different centers, you may get across to people more easily, you know, and communicate really.

 

Beatrice

And I know sometimes you’re still mystified by me as a heart center, right?

 

Uranio

What do you mean?

 

Beatrice

I notice sometimes it’s still hard for you to deal with me coming from the heart center.

 

Uranio

The same way you with me, isn’t it?

 

Beatrice

Yes. It can be so surprising…

 

Uranio

Even when we know all this, it’s still hard. If we don’t do our work.

 

Beatrice

We have to stay present. We’re doing our best.

 

Uranio

Yeah, sometimes we have hard times. But usually you go through them and everything gets better. You know, it’s important to have humour as we do. But anyway, let’s talk about the body types. So, what do you think Bea? What does it really mean to be a body type having the instinctual center as the dominant one?

 

Beatrice

Well, I think there’s a kind of groundedness and presence in the physical body that is really primary. Now, of course, not all body types are always grounded in the body in a good way all the time. But when they can really feel their bodies and be grounded, there’s a kind of naturalness to that, I think, for body types, that the other two types don’t necessarily feel as easily or as readily.

 

Uranio

Yes, I fully agree with you, I just want to make a discernment between what you called grounding and what sometimes spiritual traditions and some good psychological lines call presence. So, presence is being in the three centers, being full in the body. It’s not necessarily that the body types are present in that sense, but they are actually present in the body and being more energized in the body, more aware of the body, as you said, right? And what else, what else is important? I think we could mention maybe that body types are more based in sensations. The sensations become the primary way they perceive reality, right? It’s through the five senses. What are the five senses? It’s tasting. Help me with the right English words. How you use it? Tasting, touch, smelling, hearing and seeing. Yeah, right. So, these five senses, integrate what we call sensations. And some people mistake instincts for intuition. It’s not the same thing. We are not saying that the body types, eights, nines and ones are intuitive. The difference is that instinct is more spontaneity of the body, while intuition is the spontaneity of the soul. It’s the sixth sense, right? So, it’s not the sixth sense here, is the five senses. Now, the body types, you know, they feel those sensations first and then they get access to emotions and thoughts next. So, it’s actually about the order of the factors here, what we use first, how information is coming into us, what is the gateway.

 

Beatrice

I think for body types, it’s also about experience as opposed to emotion or thought. A friend of mine who is a nine, which is a body type, says when he’s trying to make a decision, it can be very hard for him, you know, making decisions can be challenging for nines. And he’ll go back and forth in his head, but he said that if he can experience one option or the other, then he can know very quickly. So, he might sample, he might give it a try. You know, what would it be like to actually have the experience of making one choice versus the other. And once he allows himself to have that almost sensorial experience, then it becomes very clear to him very quickly.

 

Uranio

That’s a very good point. Yes. So, body types can’t just understand something from a head perspective or feel like they want to do something. Which would be the heart space. They need to go do and try to see what’s happening. It’s like touching with the hands, you know. This is quite important. What you’re calling experience. So, I think, Bea that the most brilliant definition of instinct that I’ve ever seen was by my daughter, when she was extremely young, I think she was four, five or six years old. And she said to me one day “Dad, you know, I had this experience I think it’s a little weird. You promise not to judge me?” And I said, of course my darling I won’t judge you.

 

Beatrice

And your daughter’s a body type, right?

 

Uranio

Yeah, I think she’s a body type. Do you agree?

 

Beatrice

Yes.

 

Uranio

Yes. So, she’s must probably an eight, but she doesn’t know yet. Then she said that the experience was that inside her belly, she felt like there was a tube, like a test tube, is that the name?

 

Beatrice

Yes.

 

Uranio

Test tube. And that when something right was happening, that tube would fill in with green light, green colour. And when something was wrong, it would feel with red colour.

 

Beatrice

Interesting.

 

Uranio

Like a traffic light. And she gave me an example of when she was doing a test at school and that if she was answering the question in a wrong way, the tube will fill in with red ink, but what she told me then, that shocked me was, and I think this is crazy Dad. I can’t talk to the teachers about it and I’m afraid even to talk to you about that. And my reaction was: “Can you teach me how to do that? That’s the most brilliant thing I’ve ever heard!”

 

Beatrice

It is brilliant!

 

Uranio

Because actually, you know, we don’t really value. We don’t understand it. As a society, we undervalue quite a bit the instinctual intelligence. Which is exactly what she said. it’s a knowing through sensations. And she was talking about something she senses inside her body, and she visualizes, she even smells it, you know? So, it’s a way of knowing that’s very direct, and at least as important as the head knowing and the heart knowing. We don’t talk much about it. You know, in science for instance, we’ve been talking forever about the mental space, you know, the cognitive intelligence, then we started talking with Daniel Goleman decades go about Emotional Intelligence. But not many people talk about the body intelligence.

 

Beatrice

It’s true. And instinctual intelligence is very little understood and certainly not talked about. And I saw some people talking about this at an enneagram conference once. And they actually talked about how they believed a lot of kids have problems in school because they’re body types, they have instinctive intelligence and It’s so not understood. Our schools are oriented toward the head types.

 

Uranio

Teachers are selected only if they are not body types.

 

Beatrice

And also, the things people do in school. Like, they talked about how marching and formation and doing things physically were really important for body type kids and that wasn’t even a part of the curriculum. And then, when some of these kids act out or get restless, then they get medicated or something. They get turned into a problem and it all sums with the fact that we really don’t understand instinctive intelligence as we should.

 

Uranio

That’s too bad and, you know, when we are not really open to learning from difference, we think that the problem is whoever is different from us. You know, there’s a poet in Brazil who used to say that “the hell is the other”. And, you know, it was not only him who said that. So, I’m very interested in what you have just said. What else do you think could help us all value the body intelligence. Or whoever is not a body type, how could they develop that, like you said. Walking formation? What else? I’ve seen you talking about routine as something important for that, it seems.

 

Beatrice

Yes, I think anything that is happening in the here and now the body is, by definition, the only of these three centers that is rooted in the present moment. So, I almost think we need a revolution in our culture that recognizes instinctual intelligence as equal to the center of intelligence of the head and the heart. I think even now, we still privilege the head over to the heart. Even though we understand what emotional intelligence is much more than we used to. There is still a way that, sometimes, I know in certain cultures there’s a stigma against being too emotional. So, I think we have a long way to go in seeing these three functions or these three centers as equally important and needing to be balanced. Ideally.

 

Uranio

Great. Basically, developing the five senses and our capacity to be in touch with them and to absorb information from them is a brilliant thing to do to develop the body center.

 

Beatrice

And I know that some of us, many of us, are often out of touch with our bodies. Even body types can be out of touch with their bodies. But I remember when I was going through my psychotherapeutic training and I took a Gestalt course. And gestalt is a form of therapy that’s very body based and very based in the here and now experience. What they used to always ask us, “what are you feeling in your body now? What are you feeling in your body now? What do you feel in your body now?”. Of course, this was 20 years ago. And I was always very frustrated, because the answer is always “nothing, I’m not feeling anything, or I’m feeling fine”. And what I think was happening is I was kind of cut off from my body. And it was hard to see that and realize that, and know with confidence that I could develop a stronger connection.

 

Uranio

And how important was it for you, Bea, to develop this body awareness and get more, you know, conscious in the body center?

 

Beatrice

Very important. I think one thing that helped me is that I was athlete from early on, I played sports from when I was a kid. So that certainly helped. I was always very grateful to my father, who first got me to play softball, and then soccer. But another part of it, I think, is continuing to exercise and do things that put you in touch with the body every day. Certainly, Yoga is a fantastic way to get in touch with the body. I think there are different forms of meditative practices that are body based. And I think all of these things can be really key to developing an ongoing connection with your body, or even being able to see when you’re not connected to your body and to, you know, take action to become more connected.

 

Uranio

I need to get more inspired by you and exercise more, especially walk more in the mornings, before we are teaching the workshop, like you do. You walk a lot. Actually, I get a little embarrassed to see you, you know. You’re a good example for me, and I need to follow it.

 

Beatrice

Yes. And whenever I say “Don’t you like to walk?” You say “I like having walked, but I don’t really like walking.” But I think maybe I can continue to pressure you into developing a liking for being in the body.

 

Uranio

I’ll try to open up myself more to your suggestions. But I also had an explosion of sensations during a meditation, many, many years ago. I mean, 15, 20 years ago. And that made a huge difference in my life. Now, in my case, for instance, I am a five and therefore a head type. And I developed the sensations next. But the emotions are, you know, something that I’ve been opening up more and more in more recent years. So, it’s like, this is the third center that I am integrating. But my point is, I know many other fives who opened up the emotional center before the body center, as a second center. So, I just want to point out that, at least I don’t agree, I want to see your opinion, with approaches that say that each of the nine types develop always one particular second center after the dominant one. I think there is no rule for that. I think that it depends highly on who the person is and the life experiences. But what do you think?

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I agree. I think it depends on the person. But I hope that you hurry up and develop your connection with your heart center, so you can understand me better.

 

Uranio

You even need to lend me a good part of your tears.

 

Beatrice

I’ll try to work on that.

 

Uranio

It’s so easy for you to cry and so hard for me to cry.

 

Beatrice

It’s hard for me not to cry actually.

 

Uranio

Very hard for me to cry. And it’s not exactly about being a woman or a man, it has to do with the triads, I think.

 

Beatrice

Yes, it has to do with being in these centers or not.

 

Uranio

Well, I admire you for your heart openness. So, I’ll try to do more of that.

 

Beatrice

I think we need to maybe move on to the heart center, talking about that. But before we do, I want to say one more thing about the body center. Lately, I’ve been really working on getting in touch with my intuition. Which as you said, is something more about the soul than the body. But I think different people experience their intuition differently.

 

Uranio

And sometimes through one of these three centers.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And what I’ve been learning about myself is that when it comes to intuition, I get a lot of my information through my body. Which is very interesting. Sometimes through my heart as well. Like sometimes when I’m tuning into something, I’ll get a big emotion, but a lot of times I get a sensation in one part of my body or another that gives me information. So that’s been very interesting. So, we don’t always develop, you know, our ability to access intuition in the exact same center that we’re based in.

 

Uranio

Good point that maybe we could talk about this in a future podcast.

 

Beatrice

Let’s do a short break.

 

Man

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Uranio

Let’s move on to the heart triad. How is it really, to be a heart type?

 

Beatrice

Oh, It’s very hard.

 

Uranio

You’re already feeling it?

 

Beatrice

We’re often misunderstood, which is not easy. I think it’s just… I mean, I wasn’t always connected to my heart in the way I’m now. So, we need to say that I think part of developing generally for all of us, is even getting more access to the center that we’re already based in. So, when I was younger, and I think this is part of being a type two, I wasn’t that connected to my emotions. I mean, I would get emotional but I wouldn’t always know exactly what I was feeling. It would be more of an automatic response that I wasn’t always very good at managing or even understanding. When I first got into therapy, when I was, you know, late 20s early 30s, my therapist would say to me, like therapist do, “What are you feeling now, what are you feeling now?”. And often my answer was I didn’t know. And so, the early years of my therapy, I think, were all about me getting more connected to my emotions. Now, again it doesn’t mean I wasn’t coming from my emotions. It just that I wasn’t always accessing my emotions in a clear or coherent way. But over time, as I worked on this, I became more able to label my emotions and understand what I was feeling in the moment. And now I would say many years later, I’m very emotional. I usually understand what I’m feeling pretty well when it happens. And now it’s really about managing my emotions, you know. I’ll know when I’m angry, I’ll know when I’m sad, sometimes I’ll be having a big emotional reaction and I have to sort out if there’s a combination of feelings in there. But I would say, I’m generally very emotional, and I experience a lot of life through either my emotional reactions to things, or my avoidance of things based on wanting to avoid feeling bad.

 

Uranio

Right. Yeah. So, I think, correct me if I’m wrong, I think that you’re referring to some specific things for type two, within the heart triad, because it’s easier for them to be in touch with other people’s emotions than with their own, right? And another thing is, although you were not so much in touch with your own emotions in the beginning, I know you’re very much so right now, you were already emotional, in general, right? You’ve always been emotional, but not necessarily in touch with your own emotions. Is this correct? Is this a good description or not?

 

Beatrice

Well, I would say not always having a clear and coherent connection to what I was feeling in the moment and describe it accurately.

 

Uranio

But were you emotional in the inside, at least?

 

I would say yes. Again, I would have a big emotional reaction, but sometimes it would take me by surprise or sometimes if you asked me what I was feeling and why I wouldn’t know. So, I had to work to almost develop a stronger connection between my consciousness, and my emotional responses, let’s say,

 

Uranio

it makes sense. Now, I get really surprised at times about some capacities that heart types like you have. And I want to start talking about them. it’s hard to describe them but then, maybe you can explain this more. It’s like, it’s non cognitive at all. And you heart types have this capacity of feeling whatever anyone else in the room is feeling, and only by the person getting into the room. It’s like there is an antenna in the heart that goes inside the other person’s heart, and just feels what the other one is feeling. it’s obviously very differentiated capacity for empathy, but it’s also a capacity of the heart of tuning into other people’s feelings. Depending on what the heart type is among two, three and four, then there is an adaptation happening to match the other person’s feelings, but not necessarily. It’s just a heart’s knowing, and it’s very quick and it happens all the time, you don’t even need to know the person much. Although it may help if you know the person. Have I described it accurately? Can you explain us this mysterious thing, mysterious for a non-heart type.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s mysterious for us too, because it happens without us thinking about it. it’s very automatic. And, again, part of what’s interesting about teaching this to people is we’ve had to think about it more, something that’s usually just very unconscious. But I would say, for me, the way I would language it, and one of the things I’ve noticed when we teach the three centers is, using different language kind of gives a more accurate sense of what’s happening. The way I think I would experience is, it feels like reading people, almost energetically reading people. Now you’re reading the emotional state, but for instance sometimes I’ll have a sense immediately of someone who likes me or doesn’t, someone who was open to me or not, someone who I can read how they’re feeling or not. It’s almost like: Is someone available to me or not? Is someone feeling good about me or not? This is a little bit more of the two angle on it too, I think. But generally, it’s a sense of being able to read people or read a room and sense how people are feeling. I know for instance when I’m giving a talk in front of people, I’ll be tuning into the people I feel like who are with me. You know, almost people who are connecting with what I’m saying or liking what I’m saying. Sometimes I’ll look at people I think, ooh, either they don’t like what I’m saying or they’re not really listening to what I’m saying, and of course, that bothers me and I go back to looking at the people who are approving of me, of course, to make myself feel better. But there is this kind of sense of the heart reaching out and connecting or reading people.

 

Uranio

So, I find that brilliant, and I wish I had a little more of that. Now, it seems to me that the key thing is to understand that the one doing this reading is the heart, not the gut, like for body types, when they try to sense everything around them. Like, the heart is the one reading the situation and getting the information first and then spread it around to the rest of the organs or the, you know, all the being. Does this match your experience? like the heart is the one managing this whole thing?

 

Beatrice

Yeah, and it doesn’t even feel like it’s involving any other parts. It’s not spreading the information it’s just the organ that is handling the whole thing.

 

Uranio

And that is very very, very different from body types and from head types. Now, I have one more question for you. Before we talk briefly about how people of all types can develop the heart capacity. Now, my question is, you have described in your books, in your work, something that I really appreciate. You say that the core emotion for heart types is sadness. And this is new, you know, up to your book, authors used to say different things, shame or whatever, image. Or just, you know…

 

Beatrice

Or just feelings.

 

Uranio

Yeah. So, tell us about it.

 

Beatrice

So, I really strongly believe that the core emotion of the heart types is sadness, of course the core emotion for the body types is anger, the core emotions for the head types is fear. And it’s sadness for the heart types. I think it comes from the work of Oscar Ichazo, who is the person who is the source of all the enneagram information in the modern era, and that’s what he said, that these are the three emotions. But also, I believe that sadness is generated in heart types from an early experience of not being seen and appreciated for who you really are. I think we, heart types, get a message, and again, kind of subconsciously received, from the people around us that we’re not really loved for who we essentially are, for our true self, but for what we do for people or how we present ourselves. You know, for twos, they kind of get the message it’s for when you’re supportive of other people or when you’re doing things to please others or give to others, that’s when you get rewarded for. For threes I think it’s about when they achieve things when they perform well when they’re productive or effective or accomplished that they get the love. And for fours I think they have a sense that it’s when they’re seen for who they uniquely are. And that’s why they’re often driven to self-express, and they want to be understood because they want to stand out a little bit, they want to be seen as being unique or special. And I think in all these three ways, it’s like we have to do something to get the love. We can’t just be loved as we are, and I think that is the source of a bottom-line sadness that the heart types have. And I’ve checked this out with a lot of other heart types. And I think especially people who’ve worked with the enneagram for a long time and who’ve done inner work, most heart types I know agree that it’s sadness, and that is the core emotion of the heart types, that sort of the bottom-line thing. Now this doesn’t mean that heart types go around feeling sad all the time, just like it doesn’t mean that…

 

Uranio

Or that all the types don’t feel sad.

 

Beatrice

Exactly, or that body types are always angry or that head types are always fearful.

 

Uranio

it’s more central.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. it shapes the character the relationship to that core emotion. And so, of course, in each of these three centers, there’s one type that over does the core emotion, one type that under does it and one type that’s kind of in the middle or in conflict with it. I think in the heart center the fours overdo sadness, the threes under do it and the twos are sort of a little bit in the middle and conflict. Sometimes they repress it sometimes they’re very in touch with it.

 

Uranio

And in terms of developing the emotional center. It seems to me that it’s crucial for everybody of all types to be in touch with all emotions like anger, sadness, fear, maybe also happiness. And also, you know, put oneself in the position of feeling more, whatever makes you feel more. It could be a movie, could be a relationship.

 

Beatrice

Yes, exactly. Turning up the volume on feelings, making a practice of that. if you feel a little bit of something, try to get more into that, try to understand what’s going on there and leave more space for being more in touch with more emotions.

 

Uranio

Now, what about the head types, the head center Bea, what is your experience with me, for instance, as a business partner and a friend. Given that I am a head center. What is it that surprise you?

 

Beatrice

So, types five, six and seven are head center types and I think it surprises me that it’s just all about understanding and making mental sense of things. And that’s so much of what the full picture is and that oftentimes there’s a way of not being connected to the emotions, or the body. But I think it’s all about analysis, it’s about whether things make sense or not, it’s about mental models, it’s about compartmentalization, it’s about different ways of thinking. But what do you think? You’re the expert on the head center, tell us what your experience is.

 

Uranio

So, the experience is that, for instance, during the 30 seconds that you provided these information and explanation of how you experienced me and head types I had four or five different ideas about it. So, I remember the first time I told you that this is my process, that I’m hearing but I’m thinking while I hear.

 

Beatrice

Thinking a lot of different thoughts, while you hear.

 

Uranio

Your first reaction was, he never pays attention to me!

 

Beatrice

Yeah, no wonder he never listens to anything I ever say. He’s having about 100 thoughts while I’m saying something. How could he possibly be understanding?

 

Uranio

Not true. I’m always paying attention to you. Is that I’m also trying to think of other new things and make sense of things. So, if I am in my personality, my lower self, the head literally doesn’t stop, and it’s much more active than people who are not mental types. And I hate when people say that this is the intellectual triad. I don’t think we are necessarily more intellectual than other people. I think this has to do with the level of education that people got and not the type. So, it’s just using the head but not necessarily in helpful ways, you know. It’s just a vice, an addiction to using the head a lot. Now, if I’m too much in my personality, I’m using it to think of anything. Now, even when I’m in a better place, when I’m very present, my head is still operating in another way. Like, when you say something, I’m making sense of that in connection to everything else. So, it’s still using the head to understand a bigger picture, a bigger thing, making associations with everything. As a default, we come to the world knowing how to do the SWOT analysis, like people in business do. Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats and scenarios and different causes and consequences, we think in a complex way. This is a little bit of what it is to be a head type for me. And then fear as the main emotion. Many times, is very unconscious, and it’s not any kind of fear, it’s a fear of the unknown. So, to me it’s like all head types, fives, sixes and sevens have some sort of intolerance against what they don’t predict, what they cannot anticipate. They need to anticipate mentally what is going to happen. Otherwise, they will not feel okay and fear is the intolerance to the unknown. Now, there are different kinds of fear. Type five fear is more fear of feeling. Type six fear is fear of being, like being the authority, and type seven fear is fear of suffering. So, we use the head to make associations and understand things in the bigger picture. And like, as you said, in therapy and coaching it’s really more than half the way when we understand the problem. And many times, just by understanding, we know the solution, and we even know what to do, really. Many times, because we are head types, we need a push. right?

 

Beatrice

A push to action.

 

Uranio

To action. but it’s not that we don’t know what to do. It’s like when things make sense, we feel like we are ready. You know, so understanding something is perhaps 70 80% of what we need. And that seems to be different for, you know, you or other people who are not mental, very surprisingly!

So how different is it for you?

 

Beatrice

Yes. Well, I mean, even the word understanding, I think, can mean different things, you know. There’s mental understanding but then there’s emotional understanding. You know, I think one of the big things for us heart types, is we want to be understood by others, and we often feel either misunderstood or afraid of being misunderstood. And that’s sort of an emotional understanding. But I think what you’re talking about is more of a mental understanding, almost being able to create a mental model of what’s happening or, like you said, organize your thoughts or figure something out. And even the language we’re using, I think, understanding can apply to different levels. But, like figure things out, make sense of things, these different phrases can be important in differentiating what the different centers are all about.

 

Uranio

Yeah, in the very basic level, the difference between the three centers is where we concentrate our vital energy. Like, head types concentrate the energy around the head. Heart types around the heart and body types around the belly. So, when we learn how to redistribute the energy all around the body, we are doing the work of rebalancing our centers of intelligence.

 

Beatrice

Yes, in our live workshops, sometimes we have people actually walk around, putting their attention in different centers, and we have them do different things to evoke the experience of being a head type, a heart type, or a body type. And it’s often very funny for people to experience what it’s like to be in a different center than they’re in. Like, I remember, when I first would walk around trying to have the experience of a head type, I would get a headache or feel dizzy, or feel like I was gonna fall over. And people have different experiences when they kind of try to get into a different space than they actually live in every day.

 

Uranio

And that’s development, that it’s not easy, but it’s possible.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. And trying or having a new experience can be really eye opening in terms of having a sense of what the different experiences are, depending on what type you are.

 

Uranio

And then finally open up all three at once. Now, one of the ways to develop the mental energy is just by doing mental stuff, could be reading news, and I’ve seen many types that avoid doing that, who are not mental, because either they don’t like it, but sometimes they come with an excuse that they don’t feel well to read so many bad things.

 

Beatrice

It makes them feel bad to know what’s going on in the world.

 

Uranio

Or the feel too much when the read. So that’s something that you can do, if you want to develop the head. And by the way, Bea, you know, I think that self-help literature and, you know, some recent work on whatever self-development line we’re talking about, has somehow demonized the head. You know, it’s like, we need to develop the heart only. And it’s not true, people who are not head types need to develop the headspace.

 

Beatrice

Yes. That makes sense. And I think our society, especially in the West has been so head centered for so long, in ways that I think have been very unconscious and not very seen.

 

Uranio

It’s a push back.

 

Beatrice

Yeah, it could be a push back, a backlash to kind of finally realizing “Wow, we haven’t really been honouring the heart or the body at all!”. And our education system is completely determined by teaching to the head.

 

Uranio

Right. But even things like, you know, doing crosswords, or whatever, you know, or just talking, promoting discussions with other people can be useful to develop the head.

 

Beatrice

Yes, and certainly as a heart type, it’s been important for me to learn to be more objective. Meaning taking the emotion out of it. And that’s something that many head types can do quite easily, which is hard for me to do.

 

Jingle

Top Five

 

Uranio

Bea and I decided to include this session called top five at the end of each of our podcasts recording. We want it to be a fun and light moment. It can be top five anything related to the enneagram. Today, we are going to talk about the top five friendliest enneagram personality types. Can be friendliest also in the sense of happiness, but it’s mostly coming across as being friendly or being perceived as friendly. Now, sometimes we are going to discuss not only types but also subtypes in here, like we can say sexual Nine or social nine instead of nine only, or not. It’s our choice, and it’s very free. Now, if you don’t know about subtype, don’t worry, because you will learn about this as we record more podcasts. And this session might be useful for you also in this sense. So, what is your number five Bea?

 

Jingle

Five.

 

Beatrice

My number five person that, when we say “in personality”, I think what we mean is, before they’ve done a lot of inner work, let’s say, just the basic personality. This is the sense of friendliness. So, for my number five I put self-preservation four. And this is a four that is a little bit different than fours sometimes get stereotyped as, in that it can be a bit of a sunnier four, it’s a four that internalizes some of their emotions and usually puts on a happy face. So, they can be pretty sunny and friendly and trying to do the right thing, so I put self-preservation four as my number five. What about you?

 

Uranio

So, I chose… I was in doubt between five and four here, you know, which one to put in number five or number four, but I ended up having self-preservation six on five. You know, this is one particular kind of six that comes across in a very warm and friendly way, just as a strategy to avoid problems with anyone outside. Self-preservation sixes are usually smiling, or they tell jokes, or they’re just nice people. And they come across as being friendly.

 

Beatrice

And it’s a coping strategy for dealing with fear, right? Yes, because they look for protectors and allies and friends so that they won’t feel so alone and afraid. And so, they tend to be warm people. In fact, the name for self-preservation six is warmth.

 

Uranio

Yes. And, you know, most of the cases of the friendliest ones, maybe, you know, what they need to develop, one of the things is to get more in touch with anger, you know. These types tend to be a little less in touch with anger.

 

Beatrice

Are we saying it’s not good to be friendly?

 

Uranio

Well, it depends. I mean, it may be good in life, and in a functional way. But if these people want to self-develop more significantly, they may need to be less nice.

 

Beatrice

So maybe part of the personalities defence is being friendly, I think that’s something to keep in mind.

 

Uranio

And also, not being in touch with the important emotion of anger.

 

Beatrice

Right. So friendly, of course, can be a very good thing. But being too friendly can also be a way of avoiding other emotions or other ways of presenting oneself that may be more authentic.

 

Uranio

So, my number four is social seven, I think that this specific seven is not only enthusiastic, like the sexual seven. This is the type that comes across as being very nice to other people, very receptive. And they listen more to other people, and they help others when they are in deep need. They are sometimes very altruistic, and they put other people’s needs and priorities many times first, they help, they do things that are unbelievable at times to help others.

 

Beatrice

So, my number four, it’s funny, when I first started, I had the same number five as you I had self-preservation six as my number five, and then I switched it with self pres. four. So actually, I have self-preservation six in the fourth place, and for many of the reasons that we just described that you’ve had it in your fifth place.

 

Uranio

What is your number three?

 

Beatrice

My number three is seven. And I didn’t specify a subtype, I was thinking, is it one or the other that’s friendlier. But when I think of all the sevens I know, I think all of them are pretty friendly. So, I put seven in general as my number three friendliest outlook. You know, pretty friendly, generally.

 

Uranio

Do you know who I put in number three? I put you Bea Chestnut!

 

Beatrice

Only three? Me? I always get stuck on three. Remember two top fives ago, I was at three, too, and I put you at one.

 

Uranio

I’ll do it better next time.

Okay. I doubt that you have put social fives like me on one this time, but Okay. So self-pres. two is my third one. I think that self-pres. twos really want to be nice and come across as friendly and cute. And they have this ability to make other people like them. Maybe they are the ones that show up as being the happiest, or more two, but also sometimes the most, you know, sensitive and emotional. They are usually very nice people to be around.

 

Beatrice

I’m looking forward to thinking what two other types you think are friendlier than us self-preservation twos.

 

Uranio

And you’ve just heard an example of how pride is usually the emotion here!

 

Beatrice

I won’t deny it. I still always get caught up in pride. That’s true.

 

Uranio

So, what’s your second?

 

Beatrice

So, my second is not five. It’s nine. Nine in general. Yeah. Again, I tried to think of the three. I think maybe social nines are probably a little bit more friendly, but I think all nines are pretty friendly. And so, I put nine as number two.

 

Uranio

So, my number two is social nine. I think that actually this is the second most friendly on the enneagram. And I think they are really open to everybody else that comes close to them. It’s like all my social nine friends are so receptive. Sometimes they can also be a little fierce, forceful, you know, but maybe it’s only a matter of making things happen that it’s hard for them to go against. Only social nines who develop more do that and become a little less nice. It’s paradoxical. Because this is an example where becoming less nice is a sign of development. But in personality, they tend to, you know, know everybody, you know. It’s that kind of people that when you’re leaving social gathering, they take much longer to leave because they know everybody, and they start talking to everybody. And they, you know, get hooked in conversations with pretty much everyone, but that’s also a sign of being friendly. Now, my number one is the sexual nine. I think sexual nines tend to be a little more friendly at times than social nines. Even more so. Maybe I may be wrong. But this is my first impression given several sexual nines I know. I think they are, as you explain, they tend to be not very aggressive, very friendly, perhaps, you know, the social nine, has a little less time for things, for people, because they are really workaholic.

 

Beatrice

Can be a little more business-like at times.

 

Uranio

And I think that sexual nines are really all the time paying attention to you and not to themselves, and they tend to be in agreement with you, and come across as being calm and receptive. So, this is my number one. What is your number one?

 

Beatrice

My number one is two. And it’s not because of pride, I was just thinking about, like, who do I interact with in the world that seems extremely friendly. And it’s often when I meet other twos, and I actually put self-preservation and social because I think social twos fall into two categories. I think some social twos are among the friendliest people ever. They’re just very effusive and outgoing and very attuned to other people. Other social twos I think can be a little more tough, a little stronger, a little bit more ruthless, and, or maybe some times, not all social twos, but some social twos and some self-preservation twos. I know self-preservation twos tend to be very charming and outgoing. And I’m not just talking about myself, but wanting to make a good impression and very pleasing. And so, I kind of put both. I find one-to-one or sexual twos to be a little bit more remote, I would say sometimes. They tend to be a little more focused on one or two people and not everybody, not everybody gets the super friendly treatment, although certainly some sexual twos are extremely friendly.

 

Uranio

So basically, you are saying that you are the friendliest of all people you know.

 

Beatrice

Well, I have to say, this is not really fully a pride thing, because I don’t necessarily think friendly is being… because sometimes when I meet twos, to be really honest, and they’re super friendly, I think, wow, that person is really out of touch with their anger. It’s almost like they’re, you know, it’s a little bit like, self-preservation one can be super friendly and reaction formation or, you know, the defence mechanism of type one, to not feeling how resentful they are. I think sometimes twos can be that way. Like they’re almost too friendly. And I always think, oh, there is something going on in that person they are not looking at, because if they could get more in touch with their resentment and anger or even sadness, they probably wouldn’t be quite so friendly. So, I’m not necessarily saying this is always a healthy thing, but I find that twos.

 

Uranio

I think you may be right.

 

Beatrice

I think they really come out to meet you. You know, it’s like they’re really…

 

Uranio

And twos, different from nines, they go towards people, like, they are more proactive.

 

Beatrice

Exactly. They’re really that active in doing things for you. In fact, we’re staying right now at the home of a lovely two.

 

Uranio

We are in Egypt right now.

 

Beatrice

We’re in Egypt right now and she is doing a lot for us and incredibly generous. And it seems, you know, very healthy in her case, but just a very friendly presence from the moment we walked it.

 

Uranio

Yeah. this is Abdul-Rahmann Abdullah. A friend of ours here in Egypt. Okay, Bea I love talking to you. And you, who listens to this podcast. We definitely hope that you got a lot from it. And stay tuned on the enneagram 2.0 podcast

 

Woman

Please click on like to help spread the word on our podcast.

 

Man

Thanks for listening.

 

Jingle:

Enneagram 2.0, find your personality, Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. What’s your type, what’s your subtype, so much you can learn.  You can be amazing go ahead and transform. It’s for yourself and others grow and follow the flow. And also, for the planet, let your mind blow. It’s from Bea and Uranio, time for you to know and be your best self with enneagram 2.0. Psychology, self-mastery, work and relationships, spirituality. Come and join the podcast, oh yeah, will be fun. Explore the challenges that from now you’ll overcome. Enneagram 2.0. Tune in, it’s your personality. Enneagram 2.0 Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, Hey! Enneagram 2.0 tune in now.